I understand and support the sentiment: something needs to change. I just don’t think that re-framing electoral politics will work unless it’s backed by a mass movement of organised workers. If that happens, the question becomes, why bother with the middlemen? They can legislate for themselves without having to beg the ruling class for mild compromises.
Destroying the world more slowly by slightly impacting one election at a time brought us here.
That’s kinda what I was driving it. How many elections would it take to abolish FPTP? We’d have to wait for that and only then could we think about voting in politicians who might do something and the system would still be dominated by capital. That makes a three-step process out of a two-step process.
Seems like a request to wait for an indefinite number of election cycles—the same request of those who say to vote for this or that faction of the capitalist party and one day, just maybe, conditions will be just right for one of those parties to effect any change. Too many African, Latin American, and Asian homes and lives would be destroyed while they wait patiently for the US to get its act together.
It would take too long to work unless you know of a massive campaign across the western world to implement FPTP. If it doesn’t exist already, it must be built within the next year or so or the west will be locked into another four-ish years of no progress. And that’s just for a shot at electing politicians who might vote to abolish FPTP. Before they even come within hearing distance of, never mind face-to-face with, the contradictions of imperialism.
Currently, almost all I see in the west is how to do business as usual but in green. That means denying progress to the subjugated masses so that USians can maintain their standard of living. Oppressed people shouldn’t have to wait for the US to figure out how to tactically solve the world’s ills through an electoral technicality. Round and round we’d go with electoralism.
At this point, there is one, single option: revolution. Anything else will take too long. Luckily for humanity, whatever the US thinks or wants is largely irrelevant. The world is revolving anyway. The only question for the world is what form the revolution takes. And the additional question for USians is whether they want to be part of the change or to ruin everything out of spite and self-interest.
While I agree with revolution, I don’t think pursuing that is at odds with voting a certain way once a year. There’s already a movement to eliminate FPTP in the USA and it has been making real progress. This additional step is necessary (within the framework of voting) for the other two steps to work - the second step keeps getting undone.
Personally I’ve been pushing for this since the 2000 presidential election. It has indeed been painfully slow… But it does seem to be getting somewhere. Not to imply we shouldn’t be organizing outside of elections, too.
I have to admit, I did not expect this response. I’m struggling to see how an anti-capitalist argument in favour of socialist revolution is right wing.
A possibility? It’s happening as we speak. Time will tell.
It’s a spoiler, a red herring. “Don’t bother doing the thing that could actually threaten our power. Instead, focus on this other thing that has no shot of happening.”
And in your view, the thing that threatens their power is voting Dem? Please let me know if I’ve misunderstood. If not: (i) how does this ‘solution’ help people who aren’t in the US and (ii) the Dems are in power and have been in power recently before this, and recently before that, and they achieved… what? They brought as much horror to the world as the GOP.
They brought as much horror to the world as the GOP.
This is such a ridiculously wrong statement that if I hadn’t already been talking with you and could see you’re not an idiot, I’d assume you’re too stupid to reason with and just start calling you names. How could you possibly come to that conclusion?
how does this ‘solution’ help people who aren’t in the US
Depends on the country, but it’s generally applicable to most places. A revolution is not happening. Change within the system. And for some places, having Dems in charge in the US allows the US to pressure those countries to change in better ways.
Unfortunately they don’t care. They know what they’re doing,
This discussion (and name calling) isn’t for you. It’s for the audience.
And yet they keep doing it, and defending it.
And it’s not just this thread: read their comment history, and it’s littered with name calling and personal attacks. I report their really egregious stuff but it’s tedious reporting every single comment that has personal attacks.
I think you might be right. I let it slide in other comments as I put it down to the ordinary liberal world-outlook. But there’s only so long I’ll put up with schoolyard name-calling. I’ve got better things to do.
I understand and support the sentiment: something needs to change. I just don’t think that re-framing electoral politics will work unless it’s backed by a mass movement of organised workers. If that happens, the question becomes, why bother with the middlemen? They can legislate for themselves without having to beg the ruling class for mild compromises.
That’s kinda what I was driving it. How many elections would it take to abolish FPTP? We’d have to wait for that and only then could we think about voting in politicians who might do something and the system would still be dominated by capital. That makes a three-step process out of a two-step process.
Seems like a request to wait for an indefinite number of election cycles—the same request of those who say to vote for this or that faction of the capitalist party and one day, just maybe, conditions will be just right for one of those parties to effect any change. Too many African, Latin American, and Asian homes and lives would be destroyed while they wait patiently for the US to get its act together.
It would take too long to work unless you know of a massive campaign across the western world to implement FPTP. If it doesn’t exist already, it must be built within the next year or so or the west will be locked into another four-ish years of no progress. And that’s just for a shot at electing politicians who might vote to abolish FPTP. Before they even come within hearing distance of, never mind face-to-face with, the contradictions of imperialism.
Currently, almost all I see in the west is how to do business as usual but in green. That means denying progress to the subjugated masses so that USians can maintain their standard of living. Oppressed people shouldn’t have to wait for the US to figure out how to tactically solve the world’s ills through an electoral technicality. Round and round we’d go with electoralism.
At this point, there is one, single option: revolution. Anything else will take too long. Luckily for humanity, whatever the US thinks or wants is largely irrelevant. The world is revolving anyway. The only question for the world is what form the revolution takes. And the additional question for USians is whether they want to be part of the change or to ruin everything out of spite and self-interest.
The Red Deal may be of interest (click drop-down menu under ‘articles’): https://therednation.org/environmental-justice/
While I agree with revolution, I don’t think pursuing that is at odds with voting a certain way once a year. There’s already a movement to eliminate FPTP in the USA and it has been making real progress. This additional step is necessary (within the framework of voting) for the other two steps to work - the second step keeps getting undone.
Personally I’ve been pushing for this since the 2000 presidential election. It has indeed been painfully slow… But it does seem to be getting somewhere. Not to imply we shouldn’t be organizing outside of elections, too.
Can’t argue with that.
You’re the world’s biggest sucker if you think that’s even a possibility.
Or more likely, a russian/right wing shill
“Voting is useless” is right wing propaganda.
I have to admit, I did not expect this response. I’m struggling to see how an anti-capitalist argument in favour of socialist revolution is right wing.
A possibility? It’s happening as we speak. Time will tell.
It’s a spoiler, a red herring. “Don’t bother doing the thing that could actually threaten our power. Instead, focus on this other thing that has no shot of happening.”
And in your view, the thing that threatens their power is voting Dem? Please let me know if I’ve misunderstood. If not: (i) how does this ‘solution’ help people who aren’t in the US and (ii) the Dems are in power and have been in power recently before this, and recently before that, and they achieved… what? They brought as much horror to the world as the GOP.
You’ve misunderstood.
They’re in power by a THREAD now, and they brought us the IRA, which is the best thing we’ve done for the climate in a long time, probably decades.
And they haven’t been in power before this since a few months in 2008 when they brought us the Affordable Care Act.
The example I keep using is California, where Dems have effectively a permanent supermajority. California will be 100% clean energy by 2045: https://www.energy.ca.gov/news/2021-03/california-releases-report-charting-path-100-percent-clean-electricity
This is such a ridiculously wrong statement that if I hadn’t already been talking with you and could see you’re not an idiot, I’d assume you’re too stupid to reason with and just start calling you names. How could you possibly come to that conclusion?
Depends on the country, but it’s generally applicable to most places. A revolution is not happening. Change within the system. And for some places, having Dems in charge in the US allows the US to pressure those countries to change in better ways.
Please familiarise yourself with Rule 2. You’ve been struggling to satisfy it throughout this thread and it’s starting to get tedious.
Unfortunately they don’t care. They know what they’re doing,
And yet they keep doing it, and defending it.
And it’s not just this thread: read their comment history, and it’s littered with name calling and personal attacks. I report their really egregious stuff but it’s tedious reporting every single comment that has personal attacks.
I think you might be right. I let it slide in other comments as I put it down to the ordinary liberal world-outlook. But there’s only so long I’ll put up with schoolyard name-calling. I’ve got better things to do.
Thanks for pointing this out, I’ll stop feeding them.
…no NSFW content?
“Be respectful, especially when disagreeing. Everyone should feel welcome here.”
Instance rule 2 is
I suggest you read the linked page as well.