Your statement assumes that they don’t actually have a real right to the islands, and that they are doing what they are doing just for other ‘human failings’ reasons.
Why would they, they’re not indigenous to the area either. It’s all bullshit. Nobody has a great claim, but they (the islanders) want to be British, so that should really be enough.
Why would they, they’re not indigenous to the area either. It’s all bullshit.
Kind of agree with you on this actually. I think their stronger claim has to do with the fact that Spain owned it, and Argentina inherited those islands when they won their independence from Spain. That, and the closeness of the islands to Argentina (350ish miles as the crow flies).
but they (the islanders) want to be British, so that should really be enough.
And the people in the taken over places in Ukraine that voted that they want to be part of Russia, should that allow Russia to claim those Ukranian lands?
We should strive for the win-win and people being happy, true, but when it comes to scarce resources like oil, it never ends up being that easy. As you put it, “It’s all bullshit”.
So the people that have inhabited the island for generations get no say?
I never said that. Just that a vote is not the only criteria on what is legal ownership or not.
You keep comparing this to russia and ukraine
When you say that one vote makes ownership legit/right, then another vote in another place (Ukraine) should too, which it doesn’t, because obviously one country invading another can’t be legally/ethically handwaved away by a region population vote.
That bolsters my point, that voting alone does not make an ownership.
are you feeling alright?
No need to be rude, and try and kill the messenger.
The principle of self determination is in the UN charter that you keep erroneously saying suggests the UK should hand over the islands because of.
The other side of the coin of self determination is having the force to ensure that. Britain holds the ground, the people there want this to continue, and Argentina lacks the capability to force this to change.
I am not being deliberately obtuse but its hard when its clear you have no clue what you are talking about. This thread is full of people telling you this but you just keep repeating the same nonsense.
The other side of the coin of self determination is having the force to ensure that. Britain holds the ground
Russian holds the ground in parts of Ukraine, does that mean Russia should keep said land?
Does the Israeli settlements in the occupied lands make the land Israeli land?
Ownership is not going to be decided by us here, but to say that one country can just put their people there so the land is theirs now doesn’t make it legally so.
These are completely different situations, like how can you be so willfully ignorant. Falklands aren’t actively being invaded or in a war. Do you really wanna win this Internet argument so bad, that you gotta make some dumb shit up?
These are completely different situations, like how can you be so willfully ignorant. Falklands aren’t actively being invaded or in a war.
I never said they were invaders/invaded, just that the land was being occupied/owned by one nation where another nation lays claim to that land, and if occupation alone is legal/ethically enough to ensure claim over the land. That’s it.
Sure what I said sounds like that, if you ignore the first half of the comment you are replying to.
Here’s the first and only sentence before the sentence I replied to …
The principle of self determination is in the UN charter that you keep erroneously saying suggests the UK should hand over the islands because of.
That has nothing to do with the questions I asked …
The other side of the coin of self determination is having the force to ensure that. Britain holds the ground
Russian holds the ground in parts of Ukraine, does that mean Russia should keep said land?
Does the Israeli settlements in the occupied lands make the land Israeli land?
I was asking specifically about your statement about “Britain holds the ground”.
My point is just holding the ground is not enough to legally/ethically claim the land, especially if you’ve kicked out the people on said land that used to be there.
Argentina lost and people living in the Falklands voted to remain with UK numerous times. Making comparisons with voting in occupied Ukraine is not the same because those living in occupied territories of Ukraine were coerced. Local Falklanders voted numerous times under a free and fair election. Get over it. That’s like Spain still trying to claim Puerto Rico, Cuba and Philippines after they lost them to the Americans in 1890s.
Argentines should focus on fixing their country first instead of crying sour grapes over a territory they have no viable claim to begin with, and lost a war over it. Philippines have a similar case with North Sabah, which is administered by Malaysia; yet Filipinos did not and would not think of going to war with Malaysia because they have their plates full instead of wasting time with blind nationalism. Argentines are being manipulated by their leaders to ignore economic woes.
Argentina lost and people living in the Falklands voted to remain with UK numerous times. Making comparisons with voting in occupied Ukraine is not the same because those living in occupied territories of Ukraine were coerced
The point is, is it one of coercion or not though. Your attempt at using the coersion angle is just not to look at the truth of the situation and have to make a decision about it. It’s an easy hand waving away of the problem.
My point is that if a population that’s different in citizenship than the population that owns the land is controlling the land. And that point remains and is a valid one, in multiple situations on this planet currently/sadly.
Those in occupied territories in Ukraine casted their ballots under duress, the Falklanders were not.
My point is that if a population that’s different in citizenship than the population that owns the land is controlling the land. And that point remains and is a valid one, in multiple situations on this planet currently/sadly.
But Argentina nor Spain never had any settlers there before. The French came first then finally settled by the British.
And like I said, the Argentines should get over Falklands. They lost. They should focus on fixing their domestic issues first than starting another war whose population will never recognise the Argentinian government.
*In 1493, Pope Alexander VI issued a Papal bull, Inter caetera, dividing the New World between Spain and Portugal. The following year, the Treaty of Tordesillas between those countries agreed that the dividing line between the two should be 370 leagues west of the Cape Verde Islands.[6] The Falklands lie on the western (Spanish) side of this line. *
Spain made claims that the Falkland Islands were held under provisions in the 1713 Treaty of Utrecht which settled the limits of the Spanish Empire in the Americas. However, the treaty only promised to restore the territories in the Americas held prior to the War of the Spanish Succession. The Falkland Islands was not held at the time, and were not mentioned in the treaty. When Spain discovered the British and French colonies on the Islands, a diplomatic row broke out among the claimants. In 1766, Spain and France, who were allies at the time, agreed that France would hand over Port Saint Louis, and Spain would repay the cost of the settlement. France insisted that Spain maintain the colony in Port Louis and thus prevent Britain from claiming the title to the Islands and Spain agreed.[5] Spain and Great Britain enjoyed uneasy relations at the time, and no corresponding agreement was reached.[4]
The Spanish took control of Port Saint Louis and renamed it Puerto Soledad in 1767. On 10 June 1770, a Spanish expedition expelled the British colony at Port Egmont, and Spain took de facto control of the Islands. Spain and Great Britain came close to war over the issue, but instead, concluded a treaty on 22 January 1771, allowing the British to return to Port Egmont with neither side relinquishing sovereignty claims.[7] The British returned in 1771 but withdrew from the islands in 1774, leaving behind a flag and a plaque representing their claim to ownership, and leaving Spain in de facto control.[8]: 25
From 1774 to 1811, the islands were ruled as part of the Viceroyalty of the River Plate. In that period, 18 governors were appointed to rule the islands. In 1777, Governor Ramon de Carassa was ordered to destroy the remains at Port Egmont. The British plaque was removed and sent to Buenos Aires.[5]: 51
Spanish troops remained at Port Louis, known then as Port Soledad, until 1811[9] when Governor Pablo Guillen Martinez was called back to Montevideo as the revolutionary forces spread through the continent. He left behind a plaque claiming sovereignty for Spain.[4][10]
Basically Spain owned the islands, found out later that the French and English were land squatting and had moved in on their islands, and had something to say about the matter. The French gave their land back to Spain, the English did not.
There’s allot of history and conflict over the CENTURIES there to unpack. Its a nuanced conversation.
By that logic, Italy should have rightful claim to most of Europe since their predecessor, the Roman Empire, once owned half the continent.
As other users pointed out, you make it as though right to self-determination doesn’t matter. Majority of Falklanders identify as British. What are the Argentines going to do about that? By your same logic, Spain should still have rightfully claim Argentina despite being defeated and evicted, and Argentines do not identify with Spain? Argentina obsessing over Falklands is getting tiring and no longer cute.
They do not identify as British, and Hong Kong is legally ceded back to China as part of 99 year lease deal between UK and China.
Jesus Christ, give it a rest. Of course, you conveniently ignore the practicality of even annexing the Falklands. Would you agree that Italy should retake France, Belgium, Spain, and the UK simply because Rome once occupied them? What would happen to the locals already living in the Falklands?
you make it as though right to self-determination doesn’t matter
Did it for Hong Kong?
They do not identify as British, and Hong Kong is legally ceded back to China as part of 99 year lease deal between UK and China.
But the residents didn’t want to go to China, they wanted to exercise their “self-determination” and stay British, exactly what you’ve been advocating in your argument for the Falklands residents and Argentina and ownership staying with Great Britain.
Its very hypocritical to not apply the same thing to both circumstances.
Your statement assumes that they don’t actually have a real right to the islands, and that they are doing what they are doing just for other ‘human failings’ reasons.
Why would they, they’re not indigenous to the area either. It’s all bullshit. Nobody has a great claim, but they (the islanders) want to be British, so that should really be enough.
Kind of agree with you on this actually. I think their stronger claim has to do with the fact that Spain owned it, and Argentina inherited those islands when they won their independence from Spain. That, and the closeness of the islands to Argentina (350ish miles as the crow flies).
And the people in the taken over places in Ukraine that voted that they want to be part of Russia, should that allow Russia to claim those Ukranian lands?
We should strive for the win-win and people being happy, true, but when it comes to scarce resources like oil, it never ends up being that easy. As you put it, “It’s all bullshit”.
So the people that have inhabited the island for generations get no say?
You keep comparing this to russia and ukraine, are you feeling alright?
I never said that. Just that a vote is not the only criteria on what is legal ownership or not.
When you say that one vote makes ownership legit/right, then another vote in another place (Ukraine) should too, which it doesn’t, because obviously one country invading another can’t be legally/ethically handwaved away by a region population vote.
That bolsters my point, that voting alone does not make an ownership.
No need to be rude, and try and kill the messenger.
The principle of self determination is in the UN charter that you keep erroneously saying suggests the UK should hand over the islands because of.
The other side of the coin of self determination is having the force to ensure that. Britain holds the ground, the people there want this to continue, and Argentina lacks the capability to force this to change.
I am not being deliberately obtuse but its hard when its clear you have no clue what you are talking about. This thread is full of people telling you this but you just keep repeating the same nonsense.
Russian holds the ground in parts of Ukraine, does that mean Russia should keep said land?
Does the Israeli settlements in the occupied lands make the land Israeli land?
Ownership is not going to be decided by us here, but to say that one country can just put their people there so the land is theirs now doesn’t make it legally so.
These are completely different situations, like how can you be so willfully ignorant. Falklands aren’t actively being invaded or in a war. Do you really wanna win this Internet argument so bad, that you gotta make some dumb shit up?
I never said they were invaders/invaded, just that the land was being occupied/owned by one nation where another nation lays claim to that land, and if occupation alone is legal/ethically enough to ensure claim over the land. That’s it.
Sure what I said sounds like that, if you ignore the first half of the comment you are replying to.
Here’s the first and only sentence before the sentence I replied to …
That has nothing to do with the questions I asked …
I was asking specifically about your statement about “Britain holds the ground”.
My point is just holding the ground is not enough to legally/ethically claim the land, especially if you’ve kicked out the people on said land that used to be there.
I guess that’s a small part of a larger country so it complicates things. Maybe, I don’t particularly care, would be my personal answer.
Spain “owning” it doesn’t sound like an especially strong claim either.
Don’t think it fair to put double quotes around owning. Spain had/has a legitimate claim.
Argentina lost and people living in the Falklands voted to remain with UK numerous times. Making comparisons with voting in occupied Ukraine is not the same because those living in occupied territories of Ukraine were coerced. Local Falklanders voted numerous times under a free and fair election. Get over it. That’s like Spain still trying to claim Puerto Rico, Cuba and Philippines after they lost them to the Americans in 1890s.
Argentines should focus on fixing their country first instead of crying sour grapes over a territory they have no viable claim to begin with, and lost a war over it. Philippines have a similar case with North Sabah, which is administered by Malaysia; yet Filipinos did not and would not think of going to war with Malaysia because they have their plates full instead of wasting time with blind nationalism. Argentines are being manipulated by their leaders to ignore economic woes.
The point is, is it one of coercion or not though. Your attempt at using the coersion angle is just not to look at the truth of the situation and have to make a decision about it. It’s an easy hand waving away of the problem.
My point is that if a population that’s different in citizenship than the population that owns the land is controlling the land. And that point remains and is a valid one, in multiple situations on this planet currently/sadly.
Those in occupied territories in Ukraine casted their ballots under duress, the Falklanders were not.
But Argentina nor Spain never had any settlers there before. The French came first then finally settled by the British.
And like I said, the Argentines should get over Falklands. They lost. They should focus on fixing their domestic issues first than starting another war whose population will never recognise the Argentinian government.
Literal Spanish boots on the ground, sure, but they did own them. And the French had given them back to the Spain, who owned them by treaty.
From the wiki …
Basically Spain owned the islands, found out later that the French and English were land squatting and had moved in on their islands, and had something to say about the matter. The French gave their land back to Spain, the English did not.
There’s allot of history and conflict over the CENTURIES there to unpack. Its a nuanced conversation.
By that logic, Italy should have rightful claim to most of Europe since their predecessor, the Roman Empire, once owned half the continent.
As other users pointed out, you make it as though right to self-determination doesn’t matter. Majority of Falklanders identify as British. What are the Argentines going to do about that? By your same logic, Spain should still have rightfully claim Argentina despite being defeated and evicted, and Argentines do not identify with Spain? Argentina obsessing over Falklands is getting tiring and no longer cute.
Did it for Hong Kong?
They do not identify as British, and Hong Kong is legally ceded back to China as part of 99 year lease deal between UK and China.
Jesus Christ, give it a rest. Of course, you conveniently ignore the practicality of even annexing the Falklands. Would you agree that Italy should retake France, Belgium, Spain, and the UK simply because Rome once occupied them? What would happen to the locals already living in the Falklands?
But the residents didn’t want to go to China, they wanted to exercise their “self-determination” and stay British, exactly what you’ve been advocating in your argument for the Falklands residents and Argentina and ownership staying with Great Britain.
Its very hypocritical to not apply the same thing to both circumstances.