Ok, so this is my time to admit my very shameful past. I used to be racist, homophobic, and sexist(known as the big 3). I used my religion as an excuse for the sexism and homophobia and my father(my mom isnt racist and they are divorced) and dam near everyone on his side of the family is racist so I just grew up in that culture. Once I stopped talking to him and met a lot of people from other races, i learned we are all the same. Then I stated reading the Bible, and
once I did that, I obviously couldn’t continue believing in it.now I am an atheist and I don’t rely on a very very old book to come to my moral conclusions.So basically, it’s willful ignorance, and it is always easier to blame others for your own downfalls, and it makes you feel better about your own shitty life if you can hate on someone else.
Edited for clarification.
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I can honestly say looking back idk if I ever really believed in it. I think I was just using it as an excuse to hate people while feeling morally superior.
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I think that’s a lot of people in it. Moral superiority feels really good and hating others is a convenient way to avoid dealing with however you feel about yourself
I’m so glad you were able to see the light and thank you for having the courage to put it out there for others to see.
The most difficult faults to see and change are our own.
Then I stated reading the Bible, and once I did that, I obviously couldn’t continue believing it.
Yeah nothing obvious about that. Your religion is idiotic, all religions are lies made up by con artists or crazy people. You cant be trusted if you need some book assembled over a 600 year period, edited and abused by religious leaders to control and manipulate the masses into maintaining and increasing their own powerbase, to tell you right from wrong.
Religion is just the old world version of todays billionaires
Couldn’t agree more. Fuck a safe space for insane blatherskite.
“willful ignorance” lol
Like I don’t wanna beat up on the guy but… fuckin hell.
Ya, I was willfully ignorant for a while in my life, and then I started to actually practice critical thinking and developing a sound epistemology. I admitted I was wrong and took steps to change that. So what exactly is there to beat up on me about?
Im glad they are a better person than they used to be, but that particular sentence made me laugh out loud
Question: does that sentence lead one to believe that reading the Bible made me think the Bible is against sexism and homophobia or does it lead you to believe that I am no longer religious because I read the bible?
I used my religion as an excuse for the sexism and homophobia
I’m my experience that is extremely common.
Good for you.
I dunno it just made me think of that.
What they get is blaming others for their problems.
Seriously? So they fill themselves up with this shit and are ok with putting it out there? I will never understand it because I am very very lazy and it kind of seems like hate requires alot of effort.
Ironically, this kind of hate requires no effort, someone says “GROUP BAD!” and you just sneer and shout towards them. It’s way, way easier to blame a group than understanding all the things that are making your life/city/country/world go wrong
“Of COURSE the evil jew gay black communist feminist conspiracy is the root of all evil, they hate MY way of life!”
There’s also the point that most conspiracy theories capitalize on the “this is a secret THEY don’t want you to know!”, so it makes people feel smart (despite them believing in utter bullshit)
Fascists provide easy (but often fake) answers to hard problems. Loneliness, the fear of replacement, that kind of thing.
fascist power structures, provide power to people who follow them, and people like power. Power speaks.
This is why literally every government in the world including the US is susceptible to fascism.
Naziism and fascism are broadly a response to the same material conditions as communism and anarchism (to an extent).
Liberalism does not put forth a response to those conditions because it created them and has no internal process to relieve them (instead it externalizes them) or stop perpetuating them.
When faced with a choice between communism or fascism people generally don’t perform an in-depth analysis of what’s best for them or their cohort but instead attach to the group that provides some relief or aid.
That’s why it’s important to always help people around you when you can.
Mutual aid is anti-fascist activism!
As I’ve continued through life, my political and economic ideology has shifted a lot from Marxism and Marx-derived ideologies into a personal interpretation of collectivism that basically is just, “how can we make everything mutual aid?”
Fuck yeah we can 🤘
How does liberalism create material conditions leading to nazism and fascism?
I think that’s a stretch to paint with such an unconditional broad brush.
You may know this, but if not…
Keep in mind they’re likely referring to the philosophy of liberalism, not the United States “liberal=progressive/left leaning”.
The comment seems pretty muddy as far as what aspect of liberalism we’re talking about. The poster is saying that liberalism “created the conditions”, a direct act, vs any aspects of liberalism as a philosophical concept creating socioeconomic rules and conditions that lead to the results specified.
I’m trying to sort out what the poster means. I’d like to know what the gap they’re leaping from liberalism to fascism contains. Is it just generic anti-liberalism sentiment this poster is displaying? Or is there a distinction between liberal philosophy ( an incredibly broad concept to just pin unqualified blame to) and liberalism as a modern concept in social policy and governance in their statement?
Both movements broadly point to the material conditions created, perpetuated and encouraged by liberalism as their impetus. Scholars within both movements have written extensively cataloguing the precise ways different conditions came to pass and how it’s the fault of liberalism.
Generally speaking your communist will say liberalism sprang from the class relation under capitalism and the bourgeoise, while your fascist will say it was “‘da joos”.
E: I tried to click preview but replied instead but it’s fine because I don’t want to summarize two centuries of political thought anyway.
If you have a specific example you want clarification on I’d be happy to give it but if you truly feel befuddled that a person could say that liberalism creates the conditions (perhaps, contradictions 🤔) for communism or fascism I can point you at a bigass pile of books instead.
You keep saying “because liberalism” but you don’t specify why. You repeating yourself and using bigger words isn’t answering the question other than pointing the finger at liberalism.
You didn’t ask why, you asked how. It’s really broad question so I was gearing up to answer how by starting with what the two (overly broadly classified) schools of thought called the why.
Then I pushed reply instead of preview and realized while editing my post that I don’t want to reply to you the way I started because it would be long winded and you probably aren’t interested in reading that and I’m certainly not interested in writing it.
Liberalism creates the conditions for revolt and reaction in a lot of different ways but primarily it’s through a combination of pursuit of profit leading to unaccounted for externalities buttressed by primacy of the powerful disguised as freedom in the marketplace and in word and deed.
If you want specific examples or you want examples related to a time, place or event you’re already familiar with just let me know.
It’s hard to summarize hundreds of years of history and philosophy in just a few sentences while on break so please do me the courtesy of not nitpicking my overly broad statements.
Liberalism creates the conditions for revolt and reaction in a lot of different ways but primarily it’s through a combination of pursuit of profit leading to unaccounted for externalities buttressed by primacy of the powerful disguised as freedom in the marketplace and in word and deed.
The only place I can find such an association with pursuit of profit and liberalism is specifically in the capitalist-liberal perspective, and that is conjoined with neo-liberalism, basically “free market” that isn’t really free.
I can find no connection with liberalism, as a philosophy or a socioeconomic choice in governance, where the pursuit of profit (other than oligarchy or other authoritarian regimes that pay only lip service to liberal concepts, but that’s the end result, not the philosophical precursor) is the focus or result of liberalism.
If all you care to do is mic drop and gesture aimlessly in the direction of history, I’m afraid your point is lost.
Do you think the philosophy of liberalism can be separated from the atomized individual acting in a market?
Those ideas underpin all philosophical liberalism that I’m aware of. We can’t have liberal social relations or philosophy without a market to act as a replacement for the often feudal social relations and theocratic philosophy that existed before liberalism.
Consider Protestantism if you want a great example. It was only possible because the market allowed a class of people access to a new social relation and they needed a new system of beliefs that fit it.
You can’t separate any part of liberalism from the elevated position of the market.
I’m really not trying to be aggressive or only make pithy, in your words mic drop replies. The question you asked is very broad and I’m not able to summarize it without glossing over lots of stuff. I also don’t have the time to type, source, check, proofread and edit a reply that covers the last 800 years.
Like I said, if you want something more specific or that you’re familiar with just name it and we can talk in those terms.
Ok. You continue to make connections between liberalism to religion, markets, personal economics, and more…clouded by words like atomize, feudal, and “elevated position of the market”.
Frankly, you don’t make sense. If you are incapable of reducing the connection between the philosophy of liberalism and the direct path to fascism due to plain text tenets of that philosophy it very much sounds like you don’t understand it yourself. Or you’re just making shit up.
You have expended extraordinary paragraphs waving your hands at every point of the compass while claiming you can’t be bothered to expend effort to type an explanation. I spent a good 20 minutes searching for papers, academic, historic, or otherwise, that could connect your claims - in effect I was attempting to prove you right. There are none.
I don’t see any point in continuing this conversation, you make lots of claims using fun words, but nothing to substantiate them.
Classic bloodfart ‼️ banger
For the nazis, a big problem is the alt-right pipeline that plagues sites like Youtube, along with an unstable political climate, which generally causes radicalization (Weimer Germany is also a very good example of this phemona)
As for incels, a big problem is admittably a mental health crisis plauging many men, generally causing them to become resentful of women out of loneliness.
TLDR: Poor mental health and instability
Yeah the Internet is full of traps that are engineered to draw men in. There’s blood on Google’s hands for just letting that happen. (And probably other companies too, but YouTube is big)
Related note: unchecked capitalism makes everything worse. Trying to get dates and the apps are just like “pay us $5 and maybe we’ll show your profile to someone. Be a shame if your beautiful profile just never showed up for anyone.”
unchecked capitalism makes everything worse.
Both in the context of this discussion and in society in general.
Ahhh, your almost there at realizing that capitalism commodified dating and is basically predatory against single men.
The latter is aided by the same things as the former. Too many youtubers condition young men to think that women are the problem and the fact that they don’t take care of themselves or socialize with others doesn’t matter and it’s really the fault of everyone else. I used to online game with a couple of these guys who weren’t too bad until recently. They were both basically shut-ins who still somehow held strong beliefs about the outside world and why things are the way they are even though they didn’t really participate with the outside world.
YouTube but also porn. As it’s much less regulated in terms of tone and content, you get a lot of casual racism, misogyny and similar just thrown into the videos of pene and vagene
It’s a slippery slope. First it’s either a community they can share anything with, or it is a subject dear to them that they see people give solution to. Then, slowly, one idea at a time, they get litteraly corrupted. Ideas are imprinted through repetition, values are suggested. Then, or before, you imprint the idea that the others are lying. This is key because it seed doubt in everything, but as he is closer from this group, this group get to imprint its own ideas through repetition alone. Distance is built with relatives so that the group is the only group he has. Then if he starts to disagree, he will be kicked, sometimes also punished, and he’ll be left alone, or at least he must be convinced of it. Once there radicalisation is a process that’s hard to stop.
Doubt, distrust, and a group to be with are the key ingredients. Liberalism is a fertile ground for this because it promotes individualism when humans are social creatures. So it’s very easy to find people in need of a social group that gives belonging. And racism makes the easiest pretense : you belong because of your blood, or because you’re born here.
For sexism, it’s mostly a reactionary backlash, and secondly this liberalism problem of promoting individualism to humans who seek belonging. Feminism did won, and the old way of treating women is being addressed. But it is a process, and while we know what’s bad, we don’t have much new examples to follow. Yet most people have been trained in the old way, so now they are at lost. It’s not the first reason why they’re alone, liberalism has this place, but it is far easier to blame it on women and feminism than to try to build a new society. And also, it again gives them belonging with men like them that understands them and give explanations and solutions to their problems. Not good ones, but that’s not the point.
Ok got to ask and if you don’t know thats ok…how come it seems females are not in this type of group.? Or is there some and we just don’t hear about it? I only bring it up because you kept using he and men so thats what got me wondering…but really want to say thank you for typing all that out and a thought provocing answer…no sarcasm
For the first, it can be women too. For misogyny it’s harder. But there is a trend currently to attract and radicalise women into conservatism too. The trad wives movement. I don’t remember the names but there are movement for spirituality and naturalism that are also linked to trad wives. That is also a slippery slope : first you hook them spirituality, and at the end you have JK Rowling who is an anti-trans activist.
Women and men are not in the same groups simply because conservatives are misogynistic so they like to separate men and women.
Overall it is a culture war lead by the far right.
“so much knowledge against it”? We live in a n overwhelming ocean of information, what seems obvious to many people may be completely unheard of in other areas, we’re not all getting our information from the same sources. Or some people have become indoctrinated by other groups and have become basically inoculated against “wokeism”. Plato’s allegory of the cave is just as relevant today as it was in his time (if not more so). There are people spending their whole lives looking at shadow puppets dancing on the wall, thinking that that’s reality. Who knows, maybe it’s us, but the point is, even though we’re awash in information, ignorance is alive and well.
It’s the same as it’s always been. We gravitate towards what we feel.
The internet has just allowed certain groups who wmight be ashamed to announce their true feelings to say the quiet part out loud anonymously. This gets the next generation to not see a problem with it and go from there.
As an example. Take an impressionable young boy (14-18), he has trouble getting dates, doesn’t have a great home life. Little bit of a loner. Before the internet, hed have to figure out a purpose. Maybe he’d start going to a gym or hitting the books harder to be smarter or something… With the Internet he’s able to find “friends”, he finds a community, that community may lead him down dark paths… Where some in better living situations may say “this is too much” and walk away, he doesn’t have anything to walk to… So he gets more and more indoctrinated into the cause.
The core of the issue is the “Just World Fallacy” sometimes also called the “Prosperity Doctrine” and a few other things. It boils down to one core idea “Good things happen to good people, and bad things happen to bad people.” Basically, everyone tends to think of themselves as, more-or-less, good people. So when bad things happen, as they inevitably do, these people start going “Huh, more bad stuff is happening to me than I’ve done bad things. WTF?” So, they come to a reasonable if flawed conclusion that “someone ELSE is doing bad things, and I’m collateral damage.” This isn’t entirely wrong, although sometimes bad things do just happen. However, since at least as far back as the Civil War (and probably since time immemorial), the people whose fault it REALLY is (i.e., the people with power and privelege) have pointed at outgroups, commonly immigrants but also slaves or Catholics or trans people, and said “THOSE people are being bad. THOSE people are why you are suffering. Give me more power and I’ll get rid of THOSE people.”
Wow, well said and succinct, much love.
That’s a very complex question with many, many answers. No individual life can be boiled down to a single phenomenon. A lot of the answers I’m seeing in here are great, ans definitely describe a phenomenon at play, but it’s important to remember that nobody’s just outright stupid enough to fall for a single piece of rhetoric. Instead, them coming into bigotry is the result of a complex web of ideas that brought them to that conclusion.
That being said, I’ll add my two cents that I don’t see anyone saying: privilege. Privilege insulates people from how cold and cruel the world can be; in doing so, they don’t learn the comraderie that grows out of shared hardship (aka empathy). They see others experiencing it, and assume they are weak, both for “allowing themselves” to fall into hardship, as well as for “getting conned” by others who have fallen on hardship. This too adds fuel to the fire that is all the other reasons people get pulled into hateful ideologies.
Imagine being excluded from some perceived secret club based on conditions you didn’t have a choice in, and seeing women or bipoc or lgbt or the working class supporting each other. You too would feel resentment towards those who won’t include you in their circles. Yet you never developed the proper understanding of the ties that bind them, so you only see it as hate towards you and your demographic; this then becomes a feedback loop: your hate hurts thode communities, making them even more interdependent on each other, making you more resentful and frustrated.
You fall in with people you don’t really like because of a shared disdain for The Others, and then, because that’s your only lived experience, assume all identity-based comraderie is necessarily just a loose collective of people that only get along because of a common enemy. This reinforces your belief that The Others hate you, only adding fuel to the fire of your own hate.
This is also why these people are so easily manipulated: all you have to do is control their perception of who hates them, and they’ll do whatever you say to make it stop. This is why politics and religion are such great examples, and no “side” is immune. Want to make a leftist out of a fascist? Convince them that The Jews are actually just the bourgeoisie, who must be killed for the good of ourselves and our nation. An anarchist who fears authoritarians will readily agree to being a part of an exclusive coalition of individuals that determines the way society is structured, so, y’know, the authoritarians don’t get their way.
Incel = involuntary celibate
You become one by not being able to find a life partner or even a one night stand. Not something I’d really blame the individual for.
While I think incel’s maybe everywhere is there not some online hookups or at least prostitues that can pacify them?
Possibly yes but that doesn’t help if one is morbidly afraid of approaching women for example.
However my point was that it’s a bit pointless to ask why would someone become something when by definition it’s involuntary. It’s like asking why would anyone be under 6ft tall.
For incels there really is no other community for them. Hell, even if you are liberal there are not many mens spaces for you.
Ok you got me intrigued so what would be a men’s space?
I’m just a few drinks in spitballing, but I’d argue a pro mental health men’s group would be valid, men dont have a lot of “unique” issues (that I can think of) but the demonization of MH would definitely be one IMO.
Any kind of liberal space for men to talk about our issues. Reddit has a community that likes to pretend that is what it is. But it’s more focused on how horrible men are to women
My impression of r/menslib, formed when I was subbed there several years ago, was that it catered to people with more money than problems. The discussion there was never about real issues.
It got a little better, but there is still a lot of shit backward takes.
Incels at least is a natural consequence of the difference between society’s expectations, the needs of an individual, and generally the lack of support and or direct toxicity towards men who need help and emotional support men require as humans.
That one is a societal problem around isolating people away from affection.
The rest I have no freaking clue how one becomes a Nazi in 2024.
You make it sound like incels become incels because they weren’t loved enough during childhood.
Being an unloved —or worse, abused— child is quite often the root cause of a vast number of affective and personality disorders people develop later on as an adult.
That is total bullshit. My first bf before I turned lesbian would beat me and rape me almost daily to the point I bought a gun to commit suicide. I never used it on myself or him but I broke up with him and moved to the west coast. I am just saying that because I don’t hate men…hell I even find some attractive. But it did not make me hate or whatever an entire gender
What is exactly the bullshit part about what I said? That a bad childhood usually leads to a fucked up adulthood? Because it does. Of course, everyone copes with trauma or a tough childhood differently, and some people do move on to lead surprisingly well adjusted grown-up lives. But for the ones that don’t, having a poor childhood experience is a very common factor.
It took me 2 mins to find this research paper to evidence what I’m saying: https://bmcpublichealth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12889-016-2906-3
I could probably find a few dozen more if I spent more time looking.
Unless you are a follower even in your own mind does not give you the excuse. Cite me one thing where a person grew up in a good child hood and not become normal? Without his or hers thoughts playing into it.
I’m not saying a traumatic childhood is a good reason to dismiss someone’s crimes as an adult. Whether you had the best life as a kid or not, hate crimes must be punished all the same.
Our responsibility as a society in all of this should be to give these people the support and education they need before they find it in these cults of hate. This is where we’re failing big time.
That’s what put me on track to that mindset back when I was in school. I was short and shy and a little weird so I was bullied constantly and girls wouldn’t even talk to me. A large part of that bullying was directed at the fact that I didn’t have a girlfriend which led to me being resentful towards women because I felt like they weren’t even giving me a chance. No one ever supported me, not even my “friends”. I felt stuck in that situation and saw no way to change things which led me to be very hateful. Fortunately I got into a different environment when I was in college with kinder people who accepted me and was able to pull out of it. A lot of people are not that lucky or get too deep in the hole to pull themselves out of even if given the chance.
You become an incel by not getting laid.
That plus being an ass in general I’d say. I’m 25, haven’t ever gotten laid and struggle with loneliness all the time, but still don’t think all women are sluts and are obligated to fuck me.
You’re right inasmuch as the meaning shifted to include all the misogyny etc. I still have sympathy for people who can’t get laid.
Yeah, being an incel isn’t an ideology. It’s a material condition.