Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskiy said on Tuesday he would tolerate no corruption or treachery in affairs of state while his country is struggling to find the means to defend itself against Russian invaders.
Really? He’s equally as bad as the guy responsible for hundreds of thousands of deaths due to invading a few neighbouring countries?
Not denying that Ukraine and Zelensky have their fair share of issues but I reckon saying they’re just as bad as Putin is more than a little bit disingenuous.
Like I mentioned in my other comment, I think that both leaders can and should be criticized independently, a comparison between the two is not useful.
Neither leader is socialist, so in my opinion, neither truly has the best interest of their country’s working class at heart. There could be some observation and speculation about how the possible outcomes of the conflict could promote socialist aims, but that is still independent of both guy themselves.
Does it makes a difference if you kill one person or 100? For charts maybe but you are still a murderer even if you kill a bunch. All politicians have blood in their hands, they don’t fight their wars, we do it for them and we get forced to do it. Ukraine is under martial law, males between 18 and 60 can’t leave the country.
Do you really think that killing in order to defend yourself and others is the exact same thing as killing in support of ideologies such as fascism or imperialism? Iraqis defending themselves against Americans and Georgians defending themselves against Russians is morally identical to killing children because they speak the wrong language, worship the wrong god, or have skin that’s the wrong colour?
I’d encourage you to expound on this in your original comment, rather than start off with something inflammatory. It doesn’t promote an interesting discussion.
There was no threat made. Even if Ukraine had entered into NATO, NATO had made no noise about stationing nukes in Ukraine. It could well have kept the status of the Baltic states where they don’t have nukes stationed there. There’s really no strategic value to NATO to do so. That was an excuse made up by the Kremlin.
Zelensky did not ask for pre-emptive nukes against Russia. That was an erroneous English translation. And I said NATO had made no noise about stationing nuclear weapons. For that matter, it’s a bit of a reach to say that Ukraine is requesting that nuclear weapons be stationed on its territory, but rather that it gave up nuclear weapons in return for an agreement that Russia has now breached.
“But Zelenskyy’s response to a question from Lowy Institute Executive Director Michael Fullilove, who moderated the discussion, did not specifically mention nuclear weapons.”
While talking about nuclear weapons, what else does preemptive strikes mean? This is new levels of cope.
Plenty of russian likes putin too, they are victim of propaganda. I’m sure these Ukrainians between 18 and 60 who want to leave the country but they can’t don’t like their government much.
I’ve worked with them, and as far as I can tell whilst they don’t like the situation they’re in, they want to kick the shit out if Russians (putting it softly) more than they want to escape.
Turns out invading a country can instill some pretty heavy anger in the populace… Who knew?
I’m not going to take a hard stance here cause I don’t think a side by side comparison with Putin is a useful conversation to have, but I want to point out a couple things that may add some nuance to what you’ve heard before.
Since 1991, Ukraine has been in an increasingly precarious geopolitical position, with many differences among it’s population and political leadership about how to proceed. One could argue that Zelensky ended up stuck between a rock and a hard place, but at the end of the day his fumbling around and repeated motions towards joining NATO were bad political moves that nearly forced (kinda, maybe not forced idk) Russia’s hand into a military action. Even if going to NATO was definitively the correct choice (weird thing to think, tbh), he managed doing so incredibly poorly.
Be aware that Ukraine has had a lot of division among the populaton about whether the country should be Western/EU aligned or Russian aligned. There are many historical and cultural reasons for different regions, communities and individuals to have their particular views (like any political stance). Consider that if you spoke with a Ukrainian person somewhere outside of Eastern Europe, and used the English language, they are probably going to have a pro-western, pro-zelensky viewpoint. You probably won’t hear much from Russian speaking Ukrainians who wouldn’t prefer to emigrate to “the West”, and support Ukrainian alignment with Russia.
Having spent SIGNIFICANT time in all parts of ukraine I can safely say they are a varied people. Russian speaking Ukrainians and non Russian speaking I heard numerous pro ussr and pro west ideas. Non of what you said points to zelensky being as bad as or worse than put in. Pretty much everyone likes him regardless of personal political feelings.
Sure, like I said I don’t think it’s really important who is “worse”, it’s not a useful topic of discussion.
I did want to make a couple of counterpoints though
just cause Zelensky is popular, doesn’t necessarily make him a better leader. If we were to do a comparison (which we shouldn’t!) Putin is also widely popular along Russians. In both cases support for a wartime leader is going to rally, especially in Ukraine.
you certainly have infinitely more experience in the country than I do (dividing by zero ofc haha), but wouldn’t you have run into some of the same biases coming in as a foreigner (or foreign-born)? I don’t know your itinerary, and I’m not asking you to share, but the who, when and where is gonna make a difference.
as an example, I was interested in the interviews of the first two people in this video that I saw recently [watch starting at 3:15 till about 20 mins in]: https://youtu.be/drhgjxSJG6M located in the warzone in eastern Ukraine. Both are supportive of the Russian forces and appear to claim that such support in their local area is widespread.
Careful with that YouTube channel. Patrick Lancaster may be American, but everything he’s produced recently is essentially pro-Russian propaganda. Many (most?) of his videos are either misleading or staged.
Can you substantiate that? I’m only tangentially familiar with his work. He’s certainly softer on Russia than other sources, but is he doing more than bringing “balance” to the conversation?
Watching the clip I showed, I could suspect that he may be leaving out other interviews he did where people were more pro-ukrainian, but at the same time, the woman in the video claims that about 80% of the town supports Russia, which would line up with what I previously understood about the politics of their region.
I don’t particularly care that much about the guys personal politics, and I haven’t had that much exposure to them, since my only interest so far has been these two interviews which I personally interpret as primary sources. I would in now way claim that these two people speak for anyone besides themselves, but what they both say is loosely backed up by the data I’ve seen.
Fair question. First, I would not characterize what he does as being softer on Russia to bring balance. Some of his videos have been exposed as just being lies. That casts doubt on the rest, since ultimately you kind of just have to trust him. And before someone pops up to complain about Ukraine, yes Ukraine engages in propaganda as well. I am only cautioning against considering this source as being trustworthy.
I could try to give a rundown of him, but it would look a lot like his Wikipedia article so I will just point you there.
Fair, I’d be interested in examples, since I mostly know of him from seeing people talk about him on Lemmygrad or wherever (who have their own issues, of course). I can go find them myself though, I appreciate you giving me a general idea about what’s up wtih the guy.
I do appreciate him bringing these interviews on the ground, but I always want to do my best to account for bias and spin, even for things like that that appear straightforward. I haven’t even watched the second half of the video cause I figured it would feature him more (maybe that assumption was incorrect idk).
Definitely sounds like a crackpot who shouldn’t be taken too seriously from Wikipedia though. I just think calling something “propaganda” is a shallow criticism on its own.
He brought his country to war for the US to make a bit of money. He’s a traitor to his people. Not only as a Ukrainian but as a Jewish Nazi collaborator.
So, Ukraine was invaded (twice) by Russia with no provocation… but he brought the war? Seems like Russia brought the war and he’s doing right by the Ukrainian people by defending Ukraine.
And by all means, please list all the ways the he is a Nazi collaborator and traitor to the Ukrainian people, with sources please.
Once on invitation of Crimea to save them from the fascist regime and the second time after 8 years of negotiations to try to avoid war, in the face of an ethnic cleansing of its national allies too. Sure, Russia brought the war. Where do you get your information from? The news?
please list all the ways the he is a Nazi collaborator and traitor to the Ukrainian people, with sources please.
He literally wears Nazi iconography and is leading a country with an ultranationalism rooted in Nazism. Have you never heard the expression “Slava Ukraine?”
So there is overwhelming evidence of ethnic cleansing? I have to see any. In the age of cell phones, there would be so much evidence.
I’m sure there are some people in Russia asking the United States to remove the dictator Putin from power… Yet, the United States didn’t invade Russia. You don’t get to just invade a sovereign country because a very small number of people asking.
That’s your evidence of being the Nazi collaborator flags in the background?
Ukrainian Insurgent Army fought with the Nazis trying to free Ukraine from the soviets, as some fought with soviets to free Ukraine from the Nazis. Both were fighting to free Ukraine.
Finland joined the Nazis, not because they agreed with the Nazis but to fight against the invading soviets.
Sadly there are many places that have neo-nazis, but they are in the minority. Neo-nazis exist in places hurt by the Nazis greatly, like Poland, France, Britain and even Russia.
So there is overwhelming evidence of ethnic cleansing? I have yet to see any. In the age of cell phones, there would be so much evidence.
What do you think it looks like? You want a picture of the language laws?
Yet, the United States didn’t invade Russia. You don’t get to just invade a sovereign country because a very small number of people asking.
Yeah that’s why they got Ukraine to threaten them and start a war, to “weaken Russia”.
Ukrainian Insurgent Army fought with the Nazis trying to free Ukraine from the soviets,
Ahistorical Nazi apologism now. Look at yourself. Full mask off.
Sadly there are many places that have neo-nazis, but they are in the minority. Neo-nazis exist in places hurt by the Nazis greatly, like Poland, France, Britain and even Russia.
Again, Have you never heard the expression “Slava Ukraine?” It’s not a minority that’s repeating that.
Here is Putin standing with a Russia Nazi
That’s fake. The guy on the left is not the same guy as the one on the right. This has been debunked. It’s one of only two photos in existence like this. The other is a Russian general getting an award wearing a Ukrainian coat with a totenkopf on it. Wherase there are literally thousands of pictures of Ukrainian Nazis.
What was the threat against Russia? Were they going to invaded Russia? Ukraine barely had an army. Ukraine gave up it’s nuclear weapons in the 1990s in exchange for security protections, signed by Russia, Ukraine, Britain and the United States, promised that none of the nations would use force or threats against Ukraine and all would respect its sovereignty and existing borders (Budapest Memorandum).
Putin broke that treaty and is trying to create his dollar store version of the Soviet union by invading other countries.
So, explaining historical context is apologizing for Nazis?
Slava Ukraine is said by Ukraine, I never said it wasn’t. But you never explained how that makes them Nazis. If Ukraine was invading other countries, it might have a different meaning but it’s just them defending their country. If their slogan was “heil Hitler” you might have a point.
Wow, thousands of wanna-be neo-Nazis!!! Out of a population of 43 million. So, like .002% of the population!!! You’re right, that’s not a minority!
I say the picture of zelenskyy is fake… If I just say it, it must be true.
Okay, Stalin. So, you just resort to name calling… I can too.
Hitler and Stalin were monsters and it’s sad to see that Putin is acting like a mashup of the two of them.
Really? You want their codifications? The titles of the laws? JFC, the dishonesty on display. You’re just trying to give me busywork because you have no comeback. Are you trying to tell me that you deny that these laws exist?
What was the threat against Russia?
Constant big talk about joining NATO and installing nukes in Ukraine, eliminating the possibility of MAD. Ethhnic cleansing on its doorstep of ethnic Russians.
Putin didn’t break any treaty, Russia legally invaded Ukraine after he lost a motion in the Duma about the recognition of the breakaway regions. Once they were officially recognised Russia had to protect them from Ukraine’s Nazi forces.
So, explaining historical context is apologizing for Nazis?
If you’re “explaining” in order to make excuses for them, yes.
Slava Ukraine is said by Ukraine, I never said it wasn’t. But you never explained how that makes them Nazis.
It’s a Nazi slogan, used by Nazis. next question?
If Ukraine was invading other countries, it might have a different meaning but it’s just them defending their country.
You think Nazis are only Nazis if they’re invading somewhere? Weird idea. Anyway they were invading the autonomously declared regions in Donbas. A people who wanted self-determination to escape the threat of Nazi ethnic cleansing.
Wow, thousands of wanna-be neo-Nazis!!! Out of a population of 43 million. So, like .002% of the population!!!
Thousands of pictures. Anyway, nobody said that everyone in Ukraine was a Nazi. The state is fascist and has invented holidays honouring Nazis and renamed streets and stadiums after Nazis.
Stalin defeated the Nazis. Ukraine has never forgiven the Russians for that.
This guy is equally trash than Putin
Really? He’s equally as bad as the guy responsible for hundreds of thousands of deaths due to invading a few neighbouring countries?
Not denying that Ukraine and Zelensky have their fair share of issues but I reckon saying they’re just as bad as Putin is more than a little bit disingenuous.
Like I mentioned in my other comment, I think that both leaders can and should be criticized independently, a comparison between the two is not useful.
Neither leader is socialist, so in my opinion, neither truly has the best interest of their country’s working class at heart. There could be some observation and speculation about how the possible outcomes of the conflict could promote socialist aims, but that is still independent of both guy themselves.
Does it makes a difference if you kill one person or 100? For charts maybe but you are still a murderer even if you kill a bunch. All politicians have blood in their hands, they don’t fight their wars, we do it for them and we get forced to do it. Ukraine is under martial law, males between 18 and 60 can’t leave the country.
When making a comparison, the difference between the two things you’re comparing do in fact matter.
Do you really think that killing in order to defend yourself and others is the exact same thing as killing in support of ideologies such as fascism or imperialism? Iraqis defending themselves against Americans and Georgians defending themselves against Russians is morally identical to killing children because they speak the wrong language, worship the wrong god, or have skin that’s the wrong colour?
Idk about that - one has tried to get into EU and fight corruption, the other voted to devour his neighbouring country for increasingly petty reasons.
It’s not petty to respond to threats of nuclear annihilation by a fascist Nazi regime next door. Come on now.
What nuclear capability does Ukraine have currently?
None at all. The threat was that they would join NATO and install nukes.
I’d encourage you to expound on this in your original comment, rather than start off with something inflammatory. It doesn’t promote an interesting discussion.
You want me to edit my original comment? I’m not following. Is there something in my comment you take issue with factually?
There was no threat made. Even if Ukraine had entered into NATO, NATO had made no noise about stationing nukes in Ukraine. It could well have kept the status of the Baltic states where they don’t have nukes stationed there. There’s really no strategic value to NATO to do so. That was an excuse made up by the Kremlin.
Here you go. There’s also a video of him demanding pre-emptive nukes be used against Russia.
Zelensky did not ask for pre-emptive nukes against Russia. That was an erroneous English translation. And I said NATO had made no noise about stationing nuclear weapons. For that matter, it’s a bit of a reach to say that Ukraine is requesting that nuclear weapons be stationed on its territory, but rather that it gave up nuclear weapons in return for an agreement that Russia has now breached.
“But Zelenskyy’s response to a question from Lowy Institute Executive Director Michael Fullilove, who moderated the discussion, did not specifically mention nuclear weapons.”
While talking about nuclear weapons, what else does preemptive strikes mean? This is new levels of cope.
Here’s his direct threat of installing nuclear weapons.
And how might that one be?
Because from an outsider perspective he seems to be doing alright and anecdotally a Ukrainian man I know says the people around him like Zelenskyy
Plenty of russian likes putin too, they are victim of propaganda. I’m sure these Ukrainians between 18 and 60 who want to leave the country but they can’t don’t like their government much.
I’ve worked with them, and as far as I can tell whilst they don’t like the situation they’re in, they want to kick the shit out if Russians (putting it softly) more than they want to escape.
Turns out invading a country can instill some pretty heavy anger in the populace… Who knew?
I’m not going to take a hard stance here cause I don’t think a side by side comparison with Putin is a useful conversation to have, but I want to point out a couple things that may add some nuance to what you’ve heard before.
Having spent SIGNIFICANT time in all parts of ukraine I can safely say they are a varied people. Russian speaking Ukrainians and non Russian speaking I heard numerous pro ussr and pro west ideas. Non of what you said points to zelensky being as bad as or worse than put in. Pretty much everyone likes him regardless of personal political feelings.
Sure, like I said I don’t think it’s really important who is “worse”, it’s not a useful topic of discussion.
I did want to make a couple of counterpoints though
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Careful with that YouTube channel. Patrick Lancaster may be American, but everything he’s produced recently is essentially pro-Russian propaganda. Many (most?) of his videos are either misleading or staged.
Can you substantiate that? I’m only tangentially familiar with his work. He’s certainly softer on Russia than other sources, but is he doing more than bringing “balance” to the conversation?
Watching the clip I showed, I could suspect that he may be leaving out other interviews he did where people were more pro-ukrainian, but at the same time, the woman in the video claims that about 80% of the town supports Russia, which would line up with what I previously understood about the politics of their region.
I don’t particularly care that much about the guys personal politics, and I haven’t had that much exposure to them, since my only interest so far has been these two interviews which I personally interpret as primary sources. I would in now way claim that these two people speak for anyone besides themselves, but what they both say is loosely backed up by the data I’ve seen.
Fair question. First, I would not characterize what he does as being softer on Russia to bring balance. Some of his videos have been exposed as just being lies. That casts doubt on the rest, since ultimately you kind of just have to trust him. And before someone pops up to complain about Ukraine, yes Ukraine engages in propaganda as well. I am only cautioning against considering this source as being trustworthy.
I could try to give a rundown of him, but it would look a lot like his Wikipedia article so I will just point you there.
Fair, I’d be interested in examples, since I mostly know of him from seeing people talk about him on Lemmygrad or wherever (who have their own issues, of course). I can go find them myself though, I appreciate you giving me a general idea about what’s up wtih the guy.
I do appreciate him bringing these interviews on the ground, but I always want to do my best to account for bias and spin, even for things like that that appear straightforward. I haven’t even watched the second half of the video cause I figured it would feature him more (maybe that assumption was incorrect idk).
Definitely sounds like a crackpot who shouldn’t be taken too seriously from Wikipedia though. I just think calling something “propaganda” is a shallow criticism on its own.
Hi NATO propagandist pingveno, how are Patrick Lancaster’s unfiltered vlogs of Ukraine, since the past 8 years, propaganda in any form or shape?
He brought his country to war for the US to make a bit of money. He’s a traitor to his people. Not only as a Ukrainian but as a Jewish Nazi collaborator.
So, Ukraine was invaded (twice) by Russia with no provocation… but he brought the war? Seems like Russia brought the war and he’s doing right by the Ukrainian people by defending Ukraine.
And by all means, please list all the ways the he is a Nazi collaborator and traitor to the Ukrainian people, with sources please.
Once on invitation of Crimea to save them from the fascist regime and the second time after 8 years of negotiations to try to avoid war, in the face of an ethnic cleansing of its national allies too. Sure, Russia brought the war. Where do you get your information from? The news?
The guy is constantly pictured standing with Nazis.
He literally wears Nazi iconography and is leading a country with an ultranationalism rooted in Nazism. Have you never heard the expression “Slava Ukraine?”
So there is overwhelming evidence of ethnic cleansing? I have to see any. In the age of cell phones, there would be so much evidence.
I’m sure there are some people in Russia asking the United States to remove the dictator Putin from power… Yet, the United States didn’t invade Russia. You don’t get to just invade a sovereign country because a very small number of people asking.
That’s your evidence of being the Nazi collaborator flags in the background? Ukrainian Insurgent Army fought with the Nazis trying to free Ukraine from the soviets, as some fought with soviets to free Ukraine from the Nazis. Both were fighting to free Ukraine. Finland joined the Nazis, not because they agreed with the Nazis but to fight against the invading soviets.
Sadly there are many places that have neo-nazis, but they are in the minority. Neo-nazis exist in places hurt by the Nazis greatly, like Poland, France, Britain and even Russia.
Here is Putin standing with a Russia Nazi: https://romea.cz/_next/image?url=https%3A%2F%2Fromea.cz%2Fapp%2Fuploads%2F2022%2F02%2Futkin.jpg&w=1200&q=75
And you just attack a slogan that basically says victory to Ukraine from the invaders? Now you’re not even trying
What do you think it looks like? You want a picture of the language laws?
Yeah that’s why they got Ukraine to threaten them and start a war, to “weaken Russia”.
Ahistorical Nazi apologism now. Look at yourself. Full mask off.
Again, Have you never heard the expression “Slava Ukraine?” It’s not a minority that’s repeating that.
That’s fake. The guy on the left is not the same guy as the one on the right. This has been debunked. It’s one of only two photos in existence like this. The other is a Russian general getting an award wearing a Ukrainian coat with a totenkopf on it. Wherase there are literally thousands of pictures of Ukrainian Nazis.
You’re finished now Adolf.
Please list some laws.
What was the threat against Russia? Were they going to invaded Russia? Ukraine barely had an army. Ukraine gave up it’s nuclear weapons in the 1990s in exchange for security protections, signed by Russia, Ukraine, Britain and the United States, promised that none of the nations would use force or threats against Ukraine and all would respect its sovereignty and existing borders (Budapest Memorandum). Putin broke that treaty and is trying to create his dollar store version of the Soviet union by invading other countries.
So, explaining historical context is apologizing for Nazis?
Slava Ukraine is said by Ukraine, I never said it wasn’t. But you never explained how that makes them Nazis. If Ukraine was invading other countries, it might have a different meaning but it’s just them defending their country. If their slogan was “heil Hitler” you might have a point.
Wow, thousands of wanna-be neo-Nazis!!! Out of a population of 43 million. So, like .002% of the population!!! You’re right, that’s not a minority!
I say the picture of zelenskyy is fake… If I just say it, it must be true.
Okay, Stalin. So, you just resort to name calling… I can too. Hitler and Stalin were monsters and it’s sad to see that Putin is acting like a mashup of the two of them.
Really? You want their codifications? The titles of the laws? JFC, the dishonesty on display. You’re just trying to give me busywork because you have no comeback. Are you trying to tell me that you deny that these laws exist?
Constant big talk about joining NATO and installing nukes in Ukraine, eliminating the possibility of MAD. Ethhnic cleansing on its doorstep of ethnic Russians.
Putin didn’t break any treaty, Russia legally invaded Ukraine after he lost a motion in the Duma about the recognition of the breakaway regions. Once they were officially recognised Russia had to protect them from Ukraine’s Nazi forces.
If you’re “explaining” in order to make excuses for them, yes.
It’s a Nazi slogan, used by Nazis. next question?
You think Nazis are only Nazis if they’re invading somewhere? Weird idea. Anyway they were invading the autonomously declared regions in Donbas. A people who wanted self-determination to escape the threat of Nazi ethnic cleansing.
Thousands of pictures. Anyway, nobody said that everyone in Ukraine was a Nazi. The state is fascist and has invented holidays honouring Nazis and renamed streets and stadiums after Nazis.
Stalin defeated the Nazis. Ukraine has never forgiven the Russians for that.
He’s actually worse than Putin will ever be.
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He did not get arrested in South Africa, though. US-Europe cabal is down, and no count is needed. Its joever for Anglos.
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