In Japan, they have a term Mura Hachibu that apparently signifies when someone is ostracized and shunned from society for doing something really bad and abhorrent. I have never lived in Japan so I only know about it and have heard about it, don’t really know how it works. But in the USA it kind of seems like you can do all sorts of horrible, bad things, and there’s no real societal consequence for it… If you need any evidence of this, just look at Matt Gaetz. People literally hate this guy, in Congress and outside of it. Some people call him a child predator don’t know if it’s actually true or not and honestly don’t care to discuss it here but You would think that people that do terrible, horrible things would get put on a list and that list would be passed around society So people can be actively aware that they should avoid them, and restrict them from participating in society due to their terrible actions…

So why isn’t this ever done in the USA? Has this ever been considered, or is this like not a good thing to do?

  • lolola@lemmy.blahaj.zone
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    0
    ·
    4 days ago

    Perhaps a better question is why aren’t more people shunned. There are some good answers already, but I’ll throw in another reason that seems to come up sometimes.

    The US is highly polarized on a lot of issues. If one can frame their shunning as one of those wedge issues, they can probably get enough people to rally around them that they escape accountability.

    “I’m being deplatformed because of racism against white people!”

    “We have freedom of speech in this country, so if you take everything in the Constitution absolutely literally like I do, it’s obvious I should be able to spew whatever bullshit I want. You don’t hate the Constitution and the founding fathers, do you?”

  • Swordgeek@lemmy.ca
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    0
    ·
    4 days ago

    It’s not something you do, it’s something that society is. Japan has a long cultural history of a few things that are absolutely foreign to Western culture (not just the USA, but Canada, Great Britain, Australia, most of western Europe, etc.)

    Even in a high-stakes game of consumer-capitalism, Japan has a sense of ethics that just isn’t present elsewhere. A CEO might pull the same shady shit in Japan as they would in the US, but if they’re caught, they still mostly take responsibility - resigning in disgrace, rather than “resigning” to another company with a fat bonus, which is what we see elsewhere. I mean, three years ago McDonalds actually made news for clawing back a $105M severance package from their disgraced ex-CEO, who was having an affair with several of his employees. The fact of the matter is that he initially got the package, no matter what he did.

    Likewise, there is an expectation of acceptable behaviour in Japan. There are all sorts of circumstances where a blind eye is turned, but they’re oddly strict - and sketchy behaviour outside of that is considered reprehensible.

    So can we? Maybe in theory, but we’d have to revamp our culture - and in a direction opposite to the trajectory it’s currently on.

  • snooggums@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    0
    ·
    4 days ago

    An important thing to know is that all cultures have practices that involve shunning people, and that they are all applied to people who did nothing wrong and are not applied to people with enough connections or wealth. Some bad things that are almost universally punished but with differences in severity are being pregnant out of wedlock, not being a member of the dominant religion, being LGBTQ+, and speaking against other cultural norms. Exactly who is shunned does vary, but Japan’s is also pretty terribly implemented.

    Almost everywhere the main coubter to shunning is connections and/or wealth. Royalty, high level politicians, people like Epstein, etc. are able to get away with stuff until they piss off the wrong people and lose their connections. Some may even make it to their graves without ever being punished.

    The main people that suffer from being ostracized in practice are oppressed minorities. It is never fairly applied, even if some places do a slightly better job of mostly targeting the people who deserve it.

  • zelifcam@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    0
    ·
    4 days ago

    Just my two cents, but I think there’s something to this. There was a time in the US when, as a kid, if you did something odd or questionable, you’d get called out—and if it was bad enough, maybe even shamed by your peers. Sure, it wasn’t perfect and could be taken too far, but overall, it helped shape people into more self-aware adults.

    Somewhere in the late ’90s, this started fading out. Suddenly, everyone was ‘special’ and ‘living their best life.’ You couldn’t mention weight or bad behavior without backlash. Teachers became scapegoats for entitled parents. And now, here we are—half the country can’t make informed decisions, can’t have a productive discussion, and drives like traffic laws are optional.

  • gibmiser@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    0
    ·
    edit-2
    4 days ago

    I have a much simpler explanation. It’s because the united states is twenty six times bigger than japan.

    In the United States, you can literally fuck off to the other side of the continent if if you piss off the people where you live. If your neighbors can remember you and hold a grudge, then they can ostracize you. In Japan, the cities are close enough to each other that there will be professional connections all over the place and you will not be able to escape your reputation.

    Same reason, bad cops in the US can just go to a new precinct.

  • JackGreenEarth@lemm.ee
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    0
    ·
    4 days ago

    Have you heard of ‘cancelling’? It seems a pretty similar concept. Either way, I’m not sure we should shun people for expressing their honest opinions, that will just make them hide their opinions. We should instead try to respectfully convince them otherwise.

  • hendrik@palaver.p3x.de
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    0
    ·
    4 days ago

    That happens a lot. Read about cancel culture. Or people shunned by their relatives due to religious beliefs. Also happens to people who are LGBT+. I’d say it’s a regular thing in western culture, too.

    • dandelion@lemmy.blahaj.zone
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      0
      ·
      4 days ago

      yeah, was going to say - being trans did get me shunned, lol

      (not that being trans is a bad thing, I can’t help it and I’m not harming anyone)

      • hendrik@palaver.p3x.de
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        0
        ·
        4 days ago

        I’m sorry for the being shunned part. I mean it’s no surprise to me that some people know about this and some don’t. That’s kind of the point of telling people they’re privileged and hence don’t know other people’s struggles. But once you’re not 100% mainstream and live your life exactly like all the other people, you’ll start to notice.

        • dandelion@lemmy.blahaj.zone
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          0
          ·
          4 days ago

          It’s OK, being closeted was worse. :-)

          I didn’t realize having the wrong sex hormones in your body can mess up your mind - I was struggling with depression, anxiety, suicidal ideation, etc. for decades that were entirely unnecessary. A socially harder life with the right sex hormones is still much better than a closeted life with the wrong hormones. It was a hard lesson to learn, though.

      • JusticeForPorygon@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        0
        ·
        edit-2
        4 days ago

        Best part is when those same people that shun you for being “different” turn around and say shit like “Politics shouldn’t pick your friends.”

          • dandelion@lemmy.blahaj.zone
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            0
            ·
            edit-2
            4 days ago

            especially when they’re also privileged and unaware of what it’s like to be a minority - I don’t really know how to cross that divide, though. I guess a cis man could cross-dress in public and see how it feels, see how they are treated.

  • jeffw@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    0
    ·
    edit-2
    4 days ago

    Confirmation bias is a hell of a drug, huh?

    Terrible Americans who we’ve shunned include:

    Jeffrey Epstein

    Harvey Weinstein

    Charles Manson

    Edit: I asked ChatGPT for more examples:

    Bernie Madoff

    Ted Bundy

    Bill Cosby (debatable, he has his defenders)

    Aaron Burr

    Charles Ponzi

    Benedict Arnold

    John Wilkes Booth

    Elizabeth Holmes

    Jared Fogle (lol)

    Martin Shkreli

    Jeffrey Dahmer

    Terrible Japanese people who weren’t shunned:

    Hirohito

    Shiro Ishii, Other 731 leaders

    Nobusuke Kishi

    Issei Sagawa

    Shoko Asawara

    A number of Yakuza leaders

    Takeshi Kitano

    Junya Sano

  • slazer2au@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    0
    ·
    4 days ago

    Because money can buy your way out of a lot of problems.

    Those without money are more like to get 20 year to lifetime sentences.

  • Sanctus@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    0
    ·
    4 days ago

    That concept doesnt exist so that the affluent and powerful can leverage their positions to get whatever they want whenever they want. If they had to worry about taboos, or being ostracized, they couldn’t get everything they wanted. So we’ve been conditioned a shameless society.

    • Sanctus@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      0
      ·
      4 days ago

      America’s position on this is those pictures of Henry VIII that show him as a strapping virile man, at a time when he had a leg wound that smelled rotten and would never heal, and was so obese he needed the throne extended. Thats our outlook on shame. Theres nothing to shame here, we are the bestest best and always will be. Problems? What societal problems? My chef just informed me the food is ready I must go.

  • Sundial@lemm.ee
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    0
    ·
    4 days ago

    They are shunned by a lot of people. Where do you think all the online hate comes from? Americans have just been so radicalized that a good chunk of them don’t care anymore. It’s not a majority, but enough to make a difference in politics. As seen by the elections that just took place.