So I’ve been working professionally with Linux-based systems for a few years, and while I’m not the expert I would like to be, I have got a pretty good feeling for the way those systems work. You have the bootloader, the initramfs, the boot procedure, systemd, PID 1, you can check the logs, you have all those little things that make the system work. Everything is a file, you have file permissions and selinux contexts, you have networkmanager, systemd units, you have (system) users, some just for some services, it’s all dandy… if I have a problem with a program I can usually debug it, check its logs, and get it to run.

Now for work I suddenly need to do lots of administration of Windows systems, Win11 and server, and troubleshoot deep, weird issues…

And I’ve started reading up on it, trying to use PowerShell as much as I can, but I’m just not getting the same high level overview feeling of understanding of how the system works, of how the parts work together. Or even what parts there are, and what they do.

(Especially within an Azure context.)

Books on Windows tend to be very surface level, just instructions on what menus to click through to get a working configuration.

But what’s going on underneath the hood? What do I do when I get a weird VPN issue? I mean, there’s Get-EventLog to check for things in the logs, but… nothing feels connected.

Do you know what I mean?

(Also, how cumbersome is PowerShell? No proper paging like with less in bash, I mean, you can’t go back a page, not with windows more or that powershell pager command, and you have to type sooo many words… and yeah, everything is an object, and I see how that can be a nice idea, but man, does that force you to select properties of those objects like crazy. Is this really a good thing, once you have it figured out?)

Are there one-to-one equivalents between Windows and Linux distros that could help me understand? Or is there a really good book that spells it all out, that sets me on a path where I can someday debug ANY issue and understand what I am seeing and doing?

…and I mean, where do I even start out debugging and understanding things like Entra ID issues in Windows365 machines, and hybrid Azure domains… the Microsoft help usually just seems to be steps on how to configure the stuff, but not understanding how it works…

Sorry, this is all over the place, but I’m just lost right now 🤷‍♂️ maybe someone has felt those same things before and has something wise to tell me?

  • exchange12rocks@lemm.ee
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    5 days ago

    You have the bootloader, the initramfs, the boot procedure, systemd, PID 1, you can check the logs, you have all those little things that make the system work

    Windows has pretty much the same concepts. These two books talk about all that in deep:

    https://www.microsoftpressstore.com/store/windows-internals-part-1-system-architecture-processes-9780735684188

    https://www.microsoftpressstore.com/store/windows-internals-part-2-9780135462409

    Also check out this one: https://leanpub.com/perfbook

    • sir_pronoun@lemmy.worldOP
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      26 minutes ago

      Thank you, I just started working through the first part of Windows Internals! It’s fantastic! I think this is exactly what I was looking for.

  • Landless2029@lemmy.world
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    5 days ago

    As a powershell first guy its really nice and simple to parse an object for the information you need vs using jq/grep/awk. It’s also much faster.

    I find myself struggling to get the information I want out of bash sometimes and use LMM tools to assist me. In powershell it’s sort of similar to jq with stepping into an object to get what I need.

    As far as the so many words, there’s lots of short hand that’s not really documented. You can also just use a few letters instead of the whole word. What’s a pain is you can’t combine switches. You have to do-thing -a -b -c instead of do-thing -abc

  • ashenone@lemmy.ml
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    5 days ago

    This is what Heath Ledger did to get into his role as the Joker. Proceed with extreme caution

  • Rentlar@lemmy.ca
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    5 days ago

    For administration, you have Group Policy, Active Directory, SAM, and various other things to read up on. Like others have said you can do everything in PowerShell but commands are super verbose. Microsoft does keep thorough documentation on it at least.

    In terms of helping people with issues, you have the Windows Registry (kind of like dconf for GNOME), Backup Restore, Updates (most IT spend most of the time after fixing not working stuff, is convincing people to update their computers). If you can think on your feet, you’ll be able to solve 90% of most workers’ issues with some digging even if you didn’t know Windows more than your average computer guy.

    In terms of app development, tweaking and troubleshooting, there are a myriad of frameworks, like MFC, .NET, Electron, Microsoft Access databases somehow turned into a vital business application, etc.

    Most app developers learn one of the various systems, then end up sticking with it causing Microsoft to support a hodge podge of 20+ year old native frameworks, while others import whatever newfangled crossplatform wrapper of the day is popular. So good luck if learning this is your goal.

      • wirelesswire@lemmy.zip
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        5 days ago

        I work in Windows support. Seeing Access made me shudder.

        There’s one team in my company that used an Access database on a network share, and every day, someone would forget to close the application or restart their pc, so their manager would call in to have us manually close connections from the server side so she could access the database. My team brought it up with our management to see about getting them migrated to a SQL database or similar, but someone above us shut that down. My team no longer handles end-user support, so not sure if it was ever resolved, but it was a PITA for everyone involved.

  • Zwuzelmaus@feddit.org
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    5 days ago

    bootloader, the initramfs, the boot procedure, systemd, PID 1, you can check the logs, you have all those little things that make the system work […] it’s all dandy… if I have a problem with a program I can usually debug it, check its logs, and get it to run.

    I find it very safe to say: forget it. You can never acquire such a completeness of understanding with a windows. It is too much, the parts are too different, and too obfuscated.

    Look at it from the other side:
    The fact that this level of knowlege is possible in Linux (which is decades old, too) is a result of the openness in “open source” and of the “keep it simple” principle there.

    Windows is build deliberately in such a way that several different “windows” professionals are needed to keep all the threads together, and they all need to have paid for their “windows” education with their “windows” certificates etc. But none of them can go to such a depth in every part of it.

    And if somebody objects here, and says, hey, even idiots can get these certificates, then I say, ok, what did you think for whom it is made.

  • masterspace@lemmy.ca
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    5 days ago

    and yeah, everything is an object, and I see how that can be a nice idea, but man, does that force you to select properties of those objects like crazy. Is this really a good thing, once you have it figured out

    This is like the only thing I actually like about PowerShell.

  • stoy@lemmy.zip
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    5 days ago

    I am an IT technician, mainly focused on Windows, but I have also several years as a Linux sysadmin on my CV.

    Now, you need to remember that Linux and Wondows have vastly different stratergies for how they work.

    Linux, as you say, will allow you to view and service every part of it, as long as you know how, Windows on the other hand is more like a black box, you need to use special tools to get through the cover and access the information you may need.

    Powershell is your friend, I have only written batchfiles, bash scripts and Powershell scripts for managing systems, and out of these I find Poweshell the easiest.

    365… Microsoft loves to hide settings in the web UI, there are plenty of settings you can only set through Powershell.

    VSCode is the best editor for Powershell as far as I am concerned, I highly recommend that you use it.

    • Trainguyrom@reddthat.com
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      5 days ago

      Unfortunately this seems to be exactly the case for learning all of the weird quirks is that you just have to experience them as they happen. Fortunately most windows admin career paths include a period in an MSP where you’ll see lots of cursed configs exposing lots of edgecases, but basically keep your eyes and ears open and try to learn on your feet

  • superkret@feddit.org
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    5 days ago

    Powershell supposedly is really great once you’ve understood how it’s structured.
    I keep hearing it’s more logical and discoverable than Bash.
    Maybe that’s true, I keep bouncing off it and getting frustrated. And when I try to read up on it, the explanations throw low level programming terms at me, which I’m too stupid to understand.

    But modern Windows has one thing going for it, which makes it similar to Linux in concept:
    Literally everything can be done with Powershell, and literally every config can be manipulated manually when you know where to look.

    Configs are a bit strewn around the system, though. They can be in your user folder in AppData, or globally in C:\ProgramData or only in the Registry.
    And some software says “Fuck all this” and puts them in C:\Program Files, C:\Program Files (x86) or even in an own directory on C:\ But that’s no different on Linux, really.

    Then you can look at group policies, which are like an extended settings menu for thousands of things that aren’t in the GUI.
    And since you can write your own group policies that set arbitrary Registry values, you can make Windows your bitch.

    The main issue really is documentation. It either doesn’t exist, or it’s wrong, or only available to Microsoft employees.
    So even if you have 10 years of experience in administering Windows systems, you’re still hunting through forums for answers.

    The most important resource an experienced Windows admin can have is a list of bookmarks to trustworthy sysadmin blogs.

    So, to recap: Windows is the Registry. If it reads a config file from somewhere, the path to that program file will be in the Registry. If you change a setting in the GUI, via Powershell, or a group policy, the setting will be saved in a Registry key. Unfortunately, many Registry keys are not legible by humans. And Regedit as a tool absolutely sucks.

    • nesc@lemmy.cafe
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      5 days ago

      PS is really powerful, actually using it is one of the worst experiences ever, it’s just horrible in every way possible. After writing a few bigger scripts in ps I’ve literally swore to never touch it again except for interactive stuff and one-liners.

    • ripcord@lemmy.world
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      5 days ago

      Powershell very nice? No, in my opinion. Very powerful? Yes.

      So many parts of it are so fucking weird.

  • Brkdncr@lemmy.world
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    5 days ago

    If the OS is a space shuttle then a Linux sysadmin is an engineer while a windows sysadmin is a pilot.

  • Mearuu@kbin.melroy.org
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    5 days ago

    https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/credentials/browse/

    This might help you but I doubt you’ll ever achieve the understanding you seek from windows. Windows is closed source and the inner workings will be guarded by microsoft. Microsoft seems to be all in on security through obscurity.

    So short of getting a job a microsoft and gaining access to the source code I doubt there is anywhere that truly will satisfy this curiosity, unfortunately.