A U.S. judge on Monday said Deere & Co must face claims from crop farms and farmers that the agricultural machinery maker has unlawfully conspired to restrict services for maintenance and repair.
It’s not about right to repair. They are perfectly capable of repairing their equipment. And no one is forcing them to buy John Deere. There are a LOT of OEM’s out there in all sectors to choose from. If they don’t like the black box that’s running their equipment, there’s nothing stopping them from buying a blank controller and programming it themselves.
It’s about them wanting to circumvent systems. Whether they are safety systems to prevent injury, safety systems to prevent excessive damage to the machine, or regulatorily systems for emissions.
Famers want to bypass that shit constantly.
They want to put cheap shit diesel into their engine and who gives a shit about the environment.
They want to run their machine at 120% constantly. And then bitch to the OEM their machine broke too soon and wants warranty.
They don’t want to wear a seatbelt, or have a seat switch in their cab, or a spring return propel joystick. They want to rig up a bungy cord to the throttle and get out of their seat to go look at something while it drives.
Farmers weld up some of the STUPIDEST and most dangerous contraptions that I’ve ever seen with absolutely no education/calculations as far as frame weight/load or torque requirements/etc. “My Daddy did it back in his day, so I should do it too!!!”
And yet we get farm accidents/injuries constantly, including CHILDREN. And yet none of them are ever charged or imprisoned with running an un-safe environment/operation like any other industry would. You can’t have a 14-year old driving around a forklift in a factory without getting into serious trouble, but sure let them run a combine or tractor.
Farmers wanting access to source code is 100% because they want to disable shit.
It has nothing to do with repair, it has nothing to do with adding 3rd party shit. You can already do that. I do that on a daily basis for a huge list of OEM’s both in and out of the ag industry.
They already have the right to repair. Nothing is stopping them. The only thing stopping them is that you need a little more knowledge these days than basic mechanics and some welding skill.
If someone doesn’t like John Deere. Stop buying fucking John Deere. You want to have full control of your machine? Grab a mobile controller and have at it. No one is stopping you.
There’s nothing special about John Deere. 90% of their shit is standard J1939 protocol, and the few proprietary messaging that is John Deere specific is available if you ask, or you can sniff it out easily.
All locked down maintenance stuff is 100% there to record and verify that the farmer is taking care of the equipment properly.
The amount of “I want warranty!!!” bitching, but they didn’t change any filters, abused the machine, or used it for something it wasn’t designed for is far worse than any car mechanic shop you’ve ever seen.
I didn’t read past the part where he said there are other choices.
To me that’s all that matters in his reply…you will notice a ton of other brands in use these days, brands that don’t do shitnlike JD. Take your money to one of those brands and laugh as JD dies a self inflicted death.
So … what part of that has anything to do with a farmer getting screwed when their equipment breaks down and they’re locked out of effecting a repair they’re more than capable of doing?
When they’re racing time and the weather waiting on an overbooked repair tech that can get them in at their convenience a few days from now, and charge an arm and a leg for the pleasure? Who’s liable to tell them they need to bring it to the shop 50+ miles away?
Sure: they could buy another brand … that doesn’t work as nearly as well. That’s not compatible with the $500k+ of JD equipment and attachments they already own. That isn’t well supported in their region.
Farmers aren’t pissed because JD is preventing them from doing stupid shit. They’re pissed because JD is using every anti-consumer practice in the book to extract as much money as possible from a captive market and fucking them at the same time.
warranty
Warranties don’t cover damage from abuse, misuse, and user modifications already.
YOU CAN BUY ALL THE PARTS YOU NEED TO FIX YOUR TRACTOR.
The person you’re replying to is absolutely correct. The only thing you can’t do is legally modify the firmware on the controllers because that is usually done to bypass emissions controls. There are 10,000 page manuals supplied by Deere to diagnose and repair every part of their machinery. I have used them many times. I have never taken a tractor in to a Deere dealer to repair for any other reason than “I don’t have time to deal with this right now”.
Jesus, the misinformation on this subject is depressing, as is the willingness of people to accept it without a hint of critical thinking or research.
The only thing you can’t do is legally modify the firmware on the controllers because that is usually done to bypass emissions controls
We are talking about basic access to the software in a way that allows diagnosing and repairing problems.
Every major part of a tractor is computer controlled and “smart”, and because of that JD locks the owner out from accessing diagnostic information or swapping parts. Doing so requires hooking up a laptop with JD Service Advisor – which isn’t available to anyone apart from JD service techs.
The GPS module (or any other “smart” part) died and you want to swap it with an identical spare you have on hand? Tough shit, you need to call a tech to hook their laptop up before the computer will accept the new part. Want “trouble codes” to diagnose a problem – too bad, you don’t have JD Service Advisor to pull them. Fix a problem and want to take the tractor out of “trouble mode” … nope.
As for “modifying firmware”: the firmware controls everything. You can’t use 3rd party parts, and you can’t even use older (but still working) John Deere parts that are “unsupported”.
Jesus, the misinformation on this subject is depressing
Yeah, by people that have obviously never touched JD equipment.
There are hundreds of diagnostic addresses and values you can pull up on the minidisplays on every piece of equipment, as well as diagnostic codes that have been more than sufficient to use to follow the diagnostic procedures the Deere provides in any case that I’ve ever dealt with. That diagnostic manual is another 10,000 page manual that deere supplies and if you’re bright enough, you can fix anything. The wire numbers, circuit diagrams, test procedures, etc, etc, etc are all in there, but most farmers can’t be arsed to buy a multimeter it would seem. Most farmers that bitch about R2R wouldn’t grease their own combine if they can help it, let alone replace a turbo.
There are a certain number of parts like stepper motors etc that have CanBUS addresses that need to be programmed into the controllers so they can address the part correctly over J1939. So in those rare cases, I’ve gotten a tech to drive by on their way to another call, and spent $50 having them sync up the address, it’s not difficult. We are able to buy the JDSA systems now but it’s very much not worth the cost, $26000 the last time I checked.
And you’re plain wrong about the GPS, I’ve swapped around antennas and moved around 2630 systems with no need to call anyone. I think they’re overpriced shit compared to what I can build myself with AgOpenGPS, but they work fine for the standard idiot.
obviously never touched JD equipment
Pretty sure I know which one of us that describes.
That’s a stupid ignorant analogy. A knife doesn’t suddenly lose control and smash into things, or activate when it’s not supposed to. Or have the capability to store energy and release it. Engineers are morally and legally obligated to make their products safe to use.
You have to understand Farmers.
It’s not about right to repair. They are perfectly capable of repairing their equipment. And no one is forcing them to buy John Deere. There are a LOT of OEM’s out there in all sectors to choose from. If they don’t like the black box that’s running their equipment, there’s nothing stopping them from buying a blank controller and programming it themselves.
It’s about them wanting to circumvent systems. Whether they are safety systems to prevent injury, safety systems to prevent excessive damage to the machine, or regulatorily systems for emissions.
Famers want to bypass that shit constantly.
They want to put cheap shit diesel into their engine and who gives a shit about the environment.
They want to run their machine at 120% constantly. And then bitch to the OEM their machine broke too soon and wants warranty.
They don’t want to wear a seatbelt, or have a seat switch in their cab, or a spring return propel joystick. They want to rig up a bungy cord to the throttle and get out of their seat to go look at something while it drives.
Farmers weld up some of the STUPIDEST and most dangerous contraptions that I’ve ever seen with absolutely no education/calculations as far as frame weight/load or torque requirements/etc. “My Daddy did it back in his day, so I should do it too!!!”
And yet we get farm accidents/injuries constantly, including CHILDREN. And yet none of them are ever charged or imprisoned with running an un-safe environment/operation like any other industry would. You can’t have a 14-year old driving around a forklift in a factory without getting into serious trouble, but sure let them run a combine or tractor.
Farmers wanting access to source code is 100% because they want to disable shit.
It has nothing to do with repair, it has nothing to do with adding 3rd party shit. You can already do that. I do that on a daily basis for a huge list of OEM’s both in and out of the ag industry.
They already have the right to repair. Nothing is stopping them. The only thing stopping them is that you need a little more knowledge these days than basic mechanics and some welding skill.
If someone doesn’t like John Deere. Stop buying fucking John Deere. You want to have full control of your machine? Grab a mobile controller and have at it. No one is stopping you.
There’s nothing special about John Deere. 90% of their shit is standard J1939 protocol, and the few proprietary messaging that is John Deere specific is available if you ask, or you can sniff it out easily.
All locked down maintenance stuff is 100% there to record and verify that the farmer is taking care of the equipment properly.
The amount of “I want warranty!!!” bitching, but they didn’t change any filters, abused the machine, or used it for something it wasn’t designed for is far worse than any car mechanic shop you’ve ever seen.
Found the John Deere rep.
I didn’t read past the part where he said there are other choices.
To me that’s all that matters in his reply…you will notice a ton of other brands in use these days, brands that don’t do shitnlike JD. Take your money to one of those brands and laugh as JD dies a self inflicted death.
These kinds of things tend to spread if the early implementers are not reigned in, resulting in no choice after a few years.
No I don’t work for John Deere and I don’t recommend any of their shit.
So … what part of that has anything to do with a farmer getting screwed when their equipment breaks down and they’re locked out of effecting a repair they’re more than capable of doing?
When they’re racing time and the weather waiting on an overbooked repair tech that can get them in at their convenience a few days from now, and charge an arm and a leg for the pleasure? Who’s liable to tell them they need to bring it to the shop 50+ miles away?
Sure: they could buy another brand … that doesn’t work as nearly as well. That’s not compatible with the $500k+ of JD equipment and attachments they already own. That isn’t well supported in their region.
Farmers aren’t pissed because JD is preventing them from doing stupid shit. They’re pissed because JD is using every anti-consumer practice in the book to extract as much money as possible from a captive market and fucking them at the same time.
Warranties don’t cover damage from abuse, misuse, and user modifications already.
YOU CAN BUY ALL THE PARTS YOU NEED TO FIX YOUR TRACTOR.
The person you’re replying to is absolutely correct. The only thing you can’t do is legally modify the firmware on the controllers because that is usually done to bypass emissions controls. There are 10,000 page manuals supplied by Deere to diagnose and repair every part of their machinery. I have used them many times. I have never taken a tractor in to a Deere dealer to repair for any other reason than “I don’t have time to deal with this right now”.
Jesus, the misinformation on this subject is depressing, as is the willingness of people to accept it without a hint of critical thinking or research.
We are talking about basic access to the software in a way that allows diagnosing and repairing problems.
Every major part of a tractor is computer controlled and “smart”, and because of that JD locks the owner out from accessing diagnostic information or swapping parts. Doing so requires hooking up a laptop with JD Service Advisor – which isn’t available to anyone apart from JD service techs.
The GPS module (or any other “smart” part) died and you want to swap it with an identical spare you have on hand? Tough shit, you need to call a tech to hook their laptop up before the computer will accept the new part. Want “trouble codes” to diagnose a problem – too bad, you don’t have JD Service Advisor to pull them. Fix a problem and want to take the tractor out of “trouble mode” … nope.
As for “modifying firmware”: the firmware controls everything. You can’t use 3rd party parts, and you can’t even use older (but still working) John Deere parts that are “unsupported”.
Yeah, by people that have obviously never touched JD equipment.
There are hundreds of diagnostic addresses and values you can pull up on the minidisplays on every piece of equipment, as well as diagnostic codes that have been more than sufficient to use to follow the diagnostic procedures the Deere provides in any case that I’ve ever dealt with. That diagnostic manual is another 10,000 page manual that deere supplies and if you’re bright enough, you can fix anything. The wire numbers, circuit diagrams, test procedures, etc, etc, etc are all in there, but most farmers can’t be arsed to buy a multimeter it would seem. Most farmers that bitch about R2R wouldn’t grease their own combine if they can help it, let alone replace a turbo.
There are a certain number of parts like stepper motors etc that have CanBUS addresses that need to be programmed into the controllers so they can address the part correctly over J1939. So in those rare cases, I’ve gotten a tech to drive by on their way to another call, and spent $50 having them sync up the address, it’s not difficult. We are able to buy the JDSA systems now but it’s very much not worth the cost, $26000 the last time I checked.
And you’re plain wrong about the GPS, I’ve swapped around antennas and moved around 2630 systems with no need to call anyone. I think they’re overpriced shit compared to what I can build myself with AgOpenGPS, but they work fine for the standard idiot.
Pretty sure I know which one of us that describes.
You could cut yourself with the knife you just bought. We have dulled it for your safety.
That’s a stupid ignorant analogy. A knife doesn’t suddenly lose control and smash into things, or activate when it’s not supposed to. Or have the capability to store energy and release it. Engineers are morally and legally obligated to make their products safe to use.
That’s hella interesting. What’s your field if I may ask?
You are not wrong.