Like, why is it so widespread, what causes it, what solutions are available, etc. I don’t really know how to ask this question so I hope I’m making sense
I think it’s because people are overworked. No time for love, no time for friendship, sometimes not even enough time to take care of yourself properly.
Sex researchers Baumeister and Tice wrote about sexual economics.
“A heterosexual community can be analyzed as a marketplace in which men seek to acquire sex from women by offering other resources in exchange.”
From an evolutionary standpoint it makes sense that women wouldn’t want a partner that can’t provide security for the couple when the woman would be vulnerable if pregnant/nursing.
Young men in particular have fewer resources of value to offer than at any time in most people’s lives. To that point, it’s not like young women are dating any better, so even if they are willing to be the sole provider, most are unable to do so.
With the traditional partnership which historically provided companionship out of the question, men are left yearning for female companionship.
Another point the researchers make, is that men will always yearn, while women have a generally easier time abstaining until conditions are right.
DUI laws.
What
What?
Lol. Bad joke. What I was getting at is people used to hang out at bars and drink more (alcohol use was worse). More generally, it’s a lack of third places and car-based city design. More, and more engaging in-home entertainment/Internet also probably plays a part. Though, it’s probably not a completely new phenomenon either, judging from art like Taxi Driver, Catcher In The Rye, etc. So, toxic or even plain masculinity likely makes it harder to make and keep close friends.
I’d bet female loneliness is also rising in modern society as well, due to modern phenomenon. Humans didn’t evolve to live like we are. We used to mostly live in small, close-knit tribes.
if men display feelings, they’re seen as bitches by men, and weak by women (exceptions exist, but generally speaking).
basically, a piece of toxic masculinity….
men are only allowed to display emotions of anger or mild happiness.
i think this is a big reason why sports are so popular… it’s more about camaraderie than anything else.
also why they like to get drunk and say “i love you man” and all that mushy stuff.in a nutshell: because they’re taught to be that way.
Ignore all that and be yourself, if you’re around people that treat you that poorly you should find yourself new friends
You are dumb and wrong.
I used to struggle with this game of trying to be perceived the way I am “supposed to”. It’s when I gave up on that game that likeminded people just kinda noticed in everyday interactions.
I’ve made a lot of friends since then, and I’ve got a lot less to worry about
Faulty and even dangerous use of the phrase “supposed to.” It implies a pressure to conform to some standard of etiquette or game rule. “You’re supposed to keep your elbows off the table.” “You’re supposed to wait for the umpire to say ‘play ball’ before you pitch.”
If I were teaching a shop class, and I were to hear one of my students say “you’re supposed to use a push stick when doing thin rips on a table saw,” I would say corrective action is necessary. While yes, using a push stick while performing thin rips is good practice, use of the phrase “supposed to” implies an attitude that it is the shop teacher’s pet peeve, and that the student will be free of that pointless ritual once out on the job.
You use a push stick because a table saw is a device designed to tear the bodies of living things apart, and rapidly. If you touch the blade, your body will be torn apart, and rapidly. While performing a thin rip with your bare hands, your hands will pass very close to the blade, anything goes wrong, a kickback or similar calamity will hurt you in ways a doctor can’t fix. Push sticks are PPE, we use them so we don’t get injured, not because “it’s the rules.”
“supposed to” as in how some people and social groups except and push particular behaviours from certain individuals. As in women are “supposed to” be in the kitchen.
it’s to present the stupid way some social groups and cultures work
Yeah we don’t do that anymore. We don’t “supposed to.”
Hence the loneliness epidemic.
if men display feelings, they’re seen as bitches by men, and weak by women (exceptions exist, but generally speaking).
I don’t care if “alpaha” males think I am a soyboy, but you ain’t keeping a partner if she got the “ick”
And most women get the ick over random shit including something that they might perceive as unregulated emotions.
i agree… i just don’t think that’s an inherent thing in women and it’s a symptom of a sick society…
Good point, it could very well be. Sadly, it’s really hard to tell why, and which women will respond with it. I’ve never heard a woman alluding to it irl, but I have seen them respond in both ways.
The ick is huge. The only woman most men can open up to without playing russian roulette is their mother (assuming a healthy relationship).
Gender division and masculinity is trained into us from the second our genitals are identified be it sonogram or at birth. From the colors, toys, media, to early childhood social pressures were pushed into one of two molds. If a boy interacts with a girl it’s labelled as boyfriend girlfriend even if there’s no romantic intent (because why would children have that?). But the point is that masculinity [and femininity] is programmed throughout the core development of the brain. Unless there’s a motivation to question it that developed neuron architecture only gets reinforced. By the time you’re able to question it you’re so set in the concrete it takes years or decades of struggle to unlearn the worst traits. When you unlearn them it’s a threat to people who haven’t had to question it.
When you’re emotionally isolated from yourself, and surrounded by others who are also emotionally isolated, you’re not motivated to be around them since they won’t fulfill your needs. Then, you realize you’re also not comfortable enough to bridge the divide to people who are in touch with their own emotions. So all this hard work and you’re only a few steps down the path to connection. Usually with little sense of where to go from there.
When you finally get to the point of diving in and expressing emotionally outward, it’s easy to get wrapped with anxiety. You expect others to push you away, not because they will, most people respond well, but because you’re even less oriented and more vulnerable than ever. Though i would argue less fragile.
Lots of other posts discussing things like whether other people in the age group are socially available, and lack of third spaces.
But the point is that masculinity [and femininity] is programmed throughout the core development of the brain. Unless there’s a motivation to question it that developed neuron architecture only gets reinforced. By the time you’re able to question it you’re so set in the concrete it takes years or decades of struggle to unlearn the worst traits. When you unlearn them it’s a threat to people who haven’t had to question it.
Except for children with autism, I’d say. My mom couldn’t get me to be girly or feminine while I was growing up, I just did what made sense, sometimes that was a girly or feminine thing and other times not.
Maybe the patriarchy is an allistic people problem lol.
Toxic masculinity makes men feel like they need to be strong independent and suffer silently.
As for the other side of the coin, i would guess the Women Are Wonderful Effect.
Male loneliness has probably always been a thing. Lonely men were expected to work difficult jobs, or fight in wars for kings, or just kill themselves.
Some women would have experienced similar issues, along with probably greater rates of sexual abuse, etc.
I think there have always been quite a few people with shit lives throughout history; it’s just that society doesn’t want to acknowledge these people. People who are doing fine in life want to pretend that life is fair, when actually it isn’t.
I think that many of the approaches that tried to explain it are mostly dangerous.
Like blaming it on gender norms, and toxic masculinity, the most common answer. Because plenty of men who do not comply to gender norms or toxic masculinity (or masculinity at all) still feel alone. And their experience get invalidated by this explanation.
I think a more neutral approach is needed to explain it. Instead of trying to take some explanation that fits your political views and then try to push it as a solution to the problem, the problem should be investigated by itself, and once an explanation is reached accept it even if it does not fit your political mindset.
One hint is that most people that feel alone lack a romatic relationship, the most common approach seems to be that “nah romatic relationships are not needed and we will not even consider them part of the problem”. When it’s pretty obviously that the lack of this kind of relationships is fundamental in male loneliness.
Because plenty of men who do not comply to gender norms or toxic masculinity (or masculinity at all) still feel alone. And their experience get invalidated by this explanation.
It sounds like you completely miss the application of the explanation itself. The phrase toxic masculinity describes the social norms and expectations that men act a certain way. Society imposes gender norms on people such that those who don’t comply are at the highest risk of being shunned or ostracized, and having trouble making social connections. And the social pressure may make men act in ways they wouldn’t otherwise, so that they grow up poorly equipped to be introspective and understand their own wants/desires/emotions/drives/motivations.
Toxic masculinity tells men what they’re not allowed to be, and tells men what they must be. Both sides of that same coin are toxic to men, and by extension those that the men interact with.
Feels more like an explanation looking for a question that otherwise. Explanation doesn’t seems to emerge from the problem, but from the solution.
Again not talking about the main issue that every men that feel alone will tell you as the root of their problem:
-Lack of a relationship.
-Lack of friendships due other friends being invested in their relationships.
I haven’t meet a man that accused male loneliness because “others expect me to act manly” or because “I don’t know what I want because toxic masculinity”. Toxic masculinity may cause anxiety, discomfort or things like that in not complying men, but I don’t see it causing lack of romantic relationships. The cause of the former must be other.
The whole “men are wrong for wanting to be loved and they should be happy being alone” feels a little too much invalidating on people’s wants and desires.
While sexism and male toxicity is bad I don’t see how ending that would improve in anything male loneliness as it’s solution does not address what’s making many males feel lonely.
Again not talking about the main issue that every men that feel alone will tell you as the root of their problem:
-Lack of a relationship.
-Lack of friendships due other friends being invested in their relationships.
Actually, your comment touches on something that is really interesting to me, and a major part of where you and I differ on what male loneliness means. You’ve elevated the romantic committed relationship with a woman as the primary means by which men are expected to derive social standing and stability, but I view it primarily as an issue of friendships, mainly friendships with other men. The loneliness problem, in my view, comes from men being unable to form strong relationships with other men, and a wife or girlfriend or whatever is secondary to that.
Maybe it’s because I’ve always had stability in my friendships but didn’t have committed romantic relationships until my 30’s, but it seems like the problem of loneliness comes from not feeling like you have people in your corner (friends, family, even work colleagues), but I think focusing on sexual and romantic relationships is itself isolating and lonely, even for men who do get married. Now that I’m married I still spend plenty of time with my friends, married or single, based on the topic/activity/interest that ties us together.
Toxic masculinity is definitely not a part of relationships falling apart.
Anyone who had live through being in a group of single people through their youth and, as years pass, became the only one single on that group could probably confirm the experience. Friendships do not fall apart just because some male toxicity. It’s way simpler, it’s just that when two people do not have partners they can devote a lot of time and emotional energy to each other. When you are single a friend can easily be the most important person of your life. When you have a partner the amount of time and emotional energy that you have for friends is inferior, as you want to spend a great deal of that time and energy to your partner (as it’s natural). Then relationships became different. It’s not that it’s impossible to have “married friends”. But it’s certainly not the same as having a close single friend. And toxic masculinity does not take a part in any part of this process. The process is just a natural thing to happen on these situations.
Yes, people can cope trying to make new friendships. But that’s just a way to cope. Same as filing your live with hobbies and social activities can help coping with the lack of a romantic partner. But it does not solve the base issue. It’s like taking antidepressants for a depression, it helps, but it’s no solution, and the lack of antidepressants was not the issue.
Having a romantic relationship is important for many people. Denying that can be alienating, as you are denying personal experiences and personal feelings. I don’t think that solution is convincing people that their natural desires of being as loved as they see other people to be is just wrong and that they should live with even wanting that love (while they see plenty of other people enjoying that kind love).
That’s what I’m talking about, though. You see male friendships as a method of coping with a more fundamental problem relating to women, and I totally disagree, and argue that healthy male friendships are social connections worth developing and maintaining in their own right, whether you are or aren’t in a committed relationship with a woman. Even your framing of why male friendships fall apart involves women. It’s the centrality of women in your worldview that is preventing you from seeing how male friendships are a critical thing to have in addressing male loneliness.
Put another way, married men need healthy male friendships, too. Putting all of that emotional labor into a single link with a woman is fragile and unreliable, and I’d argue inherently unhealthy. People need multiple social links and the resilience and support that comes from whole groups connected in a web, not just a bunch of isolated pairings.
And to be clear, I’m not saying that friendships are a replacement for romantic and sexual relationships. I’m saying that social fluency, empathy, and thoughtfulness necessary for being able to maintain deep friendships are important skillsets for maintaining romantic relationships as well. The lack of romantic partners, then, isn’t the “base issue,” but is a symptom of the internal state of the person and how that person interacts with the world.
So I maintain that your worldview switches cause and effect, at least compared to mine. And maybe I’m wrong, and I’m not trying to convince you that I’m right. I’m bringing all this up to share that the surprising part of this line of comments is that I was genuinely not expecting someone to treat romantic difficulties as a primary or fundamental cause of male loneliness. To show you that at least there are other people who view these issues very differently from you, and that there’s a broad diversity of thought on the topic.
Fun fact. At no point in my comments you’ll see that I referred to “male friends” or “female friends”.
Plenty of men had female friends that got away because they fell in love with some other man/woman. And I don’t think toxic masculinity would have any impact in a friendship between a woman and a non-toxic man. And those relationships also break apart anyway.
It makes no difference the gender of the friends in my theory. And if course I don’t think that woman (or men) are, as a gender, the cause of male loneliness, or that women are to blame for anything, much less for also wanting to have a romantic relationship.
The only gendered part of the issue, and the reason on why we call it “male loneliness” is that women seems to have an easier time achieving romantic relationships when they want to. While men tend to have a much harder time and their loneliness tends to be involuntary more often than not. (Again not that women, as a gender, is to blame for this situation).
The thing is that you can be the best friend in the world, a partner will always come first for the other person. It’s not a matter of lack of empathy or any other"toxic male behavior" here. It’s just people having different priorities in life. And a problem with some people being no one’s priority. And I don’t think there’s nothing wrong with feeling bad about not being anyone number one priority in life, it’s just a plain sad fact that’s normal to make people sad about it.
I’m not convinced that my theory is true. As this is an incredibly complex topic. I just think that the whole “male toxicity is to blame” is just an easy scape goat or political dogma. “Toxic masculinity and sexism is bad so it must be the cause of every gendered issue in society”, and then constructing the argument needed for that statement to maintain true. And while sexism it’s obviously bad, it does not need to be the source of any and all problems. Some problems, I think, have other sources.
It always felt like between the ages of 12 - 18 (basically while you were in middle-/highschool) you need to get some sort of “seal of approval” from the other sex as a prove that you are relationship material. If you didn’t get that you’ll always be seen as somebody to stay away from.
I’ve heard a lot of times that those young relationships are completely inconsequential, but I think it’s those lack of consequences that serve best as a social teaching tool on how to recognize and have an actual meaningful relationship when you’re older.
And I feel like this experience is exactly what a lot of men and women are struggling to get. They have trouble finding partners and if they do they are not good partners themselves. Which is sort of a self fulfilling prophecy, you are deemed bad relationship material so you’ll become bad relationship material.
I recognized this about myself. At my age the only people left are either young divorcees, people with small children or people that are like me - single for a good reason. There will be expectations towards me that I’m neither aware of nor will probably be able to fulfill. Dating well below my age range is neither something I can pull off nor something that I am comfortable with. So I’m forever stuck in this weird limbo of wanting a relationship but knowing that whoever will be my first partner will probably not have a great time with me.
I think this is also the root of a lot of toxic behavior. People turn to sources of knowledge to at least get some idea about what an relationship is about. But all they find is the Cosmopolitans and the Andrew Tate’s who prey upon peoples’ loneliness and desperation for profit. I understand that nobody wants to be a teacher, I understand that nobody wants to throw away years of their life so that the next person will maybe have a better time with your partner.
Ali Wong had a good joke about this in her special with something along the lines off not wanting a divorce because then she’d have to teach the next guy how to please her. Taylor Tomilison also had one about wanting to call her ex during sex just so he could explain to the next guy how he did it for her. I know those are just jokes, but it think there is a bit of truth in them.
I’m just autistic\BAD and indecisive and had a romantic trauma at school and my environment (mom) is not mentally well at all (right now it’s not worse than hoarding and forgetting everything, but it was).
However, with my looks it’s somehow enough for me to just be kinda clean and shaved and in a public place for very pleasant young women (and I suppose much kinder than that girl from school) to try to talk to me with possible romantic perspective (which I usually realize after the conversation ends).
Except it just doesn’t work, either I don’t understand them, or I’m petrified and don’t know what to do or say, or I postpone interpreting the conversation to somewhere late, or I’m ashamed of the mess where I live and showing my life to that person if it goes somewhere.
So - sometimes it’s just about never having the courage to go forward. Not about other people discarding you.
EDIT: ah, also about BAD - in the mania phase one might slowly build up background dreams about some women one knows, and when trying to make a decision in regards to the woman they are really communicating with, to feel ashamed both before everyone touched by those dreams and before that woman ; I guess some people are fine with that, some even have open relationships, but this is not a common thing.
I know the feeling too well of not having a place to invite somebody to. But I always told myself that if it ever came down to it, I hopefully could convince the two halfbrained adults that call themselves my parents to behave for a few hours. But in the end it didn’t really matter because it never came down to it anyway.
A long while ago there was a post by a distressed young woman who struggled to enter relationships. I really connected with what she said but of course had no answer for her either. But what I’ve noticed is that all comments completely missed the point of the question.
I used a casino as a metaphor for dating which I think applies pretty well. Dating is essentialy that - no matter how much effort you put in, nothing is ever guaranteed or given, it all essentially comes down to luck.
What the vast majority of people hear when somebody is asking for dating advice is that they play the game but lack any success. They then give you advice on how to play your cards right, how to increase your chances, how to cut you losses, etc. But they don’t understand it’s not about how to win the table, but how to get into the casino in the first place. Not what to I tell the dealer at the table, but what do I tell the bouncer at the door?
It’s not about the rejection I’m facing, its about the fact that my mere approach is seen as an insult. It’s the audacity to ask to be included in something that is considered a normal part of life for others.
There’s a disorder, I forgot what it’s called but it makes people feel especially uneasy around psychopaths, even if the psychopaths themselves are extremely good at hiding their psychopathy. Basically those people can pick up on queues nobody else, not even the psychopaths themselves are aware of. This is essential how I and many others feel, like there’s something about us that we are unaware of but everybody else picks up on that tells them to keep their distance. Something that is outside of our control. We could have every trait that would make anybody other than us attractive, yet we would still end up being alone because at some point nature pointed her finger at us at said “Yes, but not you”.
At my age the only people left are either young divorcees, people with small children or people that are like me - single for a good reason.
How old are you?
I don’t want to tie any personal information to my lemmy account but let’s say I’m still in YouTubes biggest advertisment age bracket.
A quick search says you’re 55-64. I bet you can get old divorcees at that age too.
Its 25-34.
Is that by dollars spent or just population size?
By CPV, did you mean most populous.
What i really want to see is how the rise of ai companions will affect all this. Nomi, replika, and the others are already doing good, and i forsee that it will keep growing as the technology improves, for better or for worse
They are not doing good. People are becoming dependent on chatbots produced by for-profit companies to get their fix of human socialisation. That’s absolutely awful, very unfortunate, and most assuredly unhealthy.
What i meant by good was financially, not as “good for society”. Maybe i should have made that clear
I think you meant “doing well” 🙃
Oh, I see. Yeah, they’ve definitely taken advantage of the situation.
This is one thing i have wanted to point out. But it good to see how sensitive the whole issue is. That -10 downvote on the original comment tells me people are really sensitive to the whole phenomenon
We’re meant to be alone.
Humans are social animals
I need the most cynical take you have…
…nooooh, that’s too cynical.
We aren’t though. That’s just something we’re told.
And what’s up with cab drivers and B.O. - how long are those shifts? I’m thinkin’ Hey!
What’s up with dumb answers to serious questions? I’m just wondering, Hey!
Here’s a theory. I’m sure it has lots of holes in it.
Male loneliness has always been a thing. In cultures where it isn’t/wasn’t, there was a strong family relationship and older men modelling how to relate to others.
To hide from loneliness, men were able to join clubs, hang out at pubs, volunteer, or bury themselves in work.
In fact, those same pastimes are still available today.
What’s changed is that it is now socially OK to talk about loneliness (at least in online forums like this), so more people are aware it’s an issue.
In fact, those same pastimes are still available today.
That is glossing over a lot of context, a big one being that club membership is down (that’s a big point of Bowling Alone). I would not be surprised if many clubs relocated or shut down due to low membership, especially after raising membership fees. Or y’know that they were already a middleclass thing, thus canaries.
Pubs are also going to rely on prices, but the most social ones likely are accessible by free public transit or are located in a walkable/mixed-use area (particularly cities designed before+not-bulldozed-for cars).
I don’t think this is about awareness, especially when most people have less friends and less (or no) social engagement.
I think you may have missed the point I was making though— clubs and other pastimes didn’t make people less lonely; they only distracted people from their loneliness. Today the same distractions can be found via social media, so instead of all those other activities, people just need a phone.
But the anonymizing nature of social media means people feel more free to discuss their loneliness when they do self-reflect.
The entire country is designed to physically isolate people into shiti suburban houses.
Only solution is to quit being poor and live in specific major cities that didn’t get ruined by shiti car lobbies 🤡
When you have a significant change in the population dynamic, it takes a significant time for the population not (really) effecting this change to adjust.
From my perspective as an old bloke, Women now treat relationships as transactional, men haven’t kept pace. There are obviously a number of reasons and I’m not making that statement to judge or analyse; mass change requires motivation. The motivation presented itself. Society is in the same incredible flux as when the pill became a real and common thing fifty years ago.
The risks for a man of a relationship significantly outweigh the rewards. Being aware of the overwhelming risks and deciding not to engage doesn’t stop one being lonely.
“I used to think the worst thing in life was to end up all alone. It’s not. The worst thing in life is to end up with people who make you feel alone.” - Robin Williams
Could you please elaborate on what you mean by risk and why is it worse for men?
The juice ain’t worth the squeeze.
-
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/risk I’m assuming you’re not familiar with the word and English is not your first language.
-
- 80 - 90% of women win custody battles, despite prisons being almost entirely of fatherless homes. Homes where the father is the single parent have the same recidivism rate as two parent homes.
- False accusations of violence are free or fully funded for women. In the England/Wales when legal aid introduced the requirement of domestic violence before legal aid was granted, on the quarter of this rule coming in (2011) applications under domestic abuse were multiplied by 10 times. Either men collectively decided to start beating their wives in that quarter or fully funded false accusations were exposed as an issue.
- About 20-30% of children are not related to their father as named on their birth certificate. Statistics from the child maintenance body in the UK shows that for the thousands of men placed on child maintenance applications over a third were shown to be false applications citing unrelated men. Google for other numbers. In France, it is illegal it seek the DNA child - father match for your own children.
- In the UK the 1971 law (MCA) says effectively that joint marital assets follow the children. The woman typically gets around 80%+ of net assets because they have custody of the children. that’s a personal observation because these are private law cases. The government refuses to publish the real numbers.
-
(I’m tired of typing now) Domestic violence against men is ignored; or the victim is arrested. There are no shelters for men and children in the whole of the UK. Erin pissey, a lovely woman, who came up with the idea for shelters for DV survivors for both sexes was removed from the organisation she started by feminists and now campaigns for DV shelters for men. All of these government money for supporting male victims of DV is given to 'Women’s Aid" after their successful bid years ago. There is still no support for male victims; it doesn’t take a genius to imagine why.
-
Someone else is going to have to finish these.
Thanks for typing these out! I asked more because I wanted to know where exactly you were coming from, not strictly because I didn’t have the language skills. Then again, i think it is very much worth it to have the information on these shared more widely
-
Women are not putting themselves out anymore
Women don’t owe you sex, learn and grow as a person
I am not sure what this means. Women will always make themselves available to a guy they like, they all just like the same few guys while the rest of male population gives them the ick.
