It seems that there are a lot of Israelis that believe that there are no innocents in Gaza. And one could argue that it’s possible that a significant majority of the population is hateful towards Israelis, considering the history.
If you agree with this argument, can you please explain why and elaborate? And if you don’t, how would you refute it? There is no data that shows that there isn’t a significant majority that’s hateful towards the Israelis.
DISCLAIMER: I’m not stating my opinion as I want to hear an unbiased opinion from you.
I don’t think this is a properly formed question because there’s a difference between “not hateful” and “innocent”. “Innocent” also needs further qualification - innocent of what?
Also, there are no “unbiased opinion” on anything, that’s just not possible.
Also, there are no “unbiased opinion” on anything, that’s just not possible.
It is possible to get someone’s opinion without accidentally influencing them, which is what they’re referring to.
Yeah, that seems to make sense I suppose. Although that makes me wonder if OP thinks they have enough impact to meaningfully influence opinions…
Subtle influences on the way people think or talk about their thoughts are so common I’m surprised we even have to talk about the phenomenon.
I’m not going to fundamentally change my opinion just because of what some rando on the interwebz says to get a discussion going.
A core principle of modern (western) legal states is that it’s preferable to let 10 guilty people walk free before wrongfully punishing one innocent. I’m aware that we often don’t manage to live up to that, but it is the ideal.
That’s why guilt of the individual (!) has to be proven beyond reasonable doubt, it’s why certain evidence may become inadmissible if it’s been acquired illegally, it’s why suspect’s may walk free due to formal errors. We try to make absolutely sure that cutting corners doesn’t lead to wrong conclusions, even if it means that we sometimes have to let criminals go unpunished.
Following that same principle, “it’s possible that there’s a significant majority” isn’t enough. Where’s the proof that there’s not a single inhabitant of Gaza who doesn’t support Hamas?
Also, since when is it a crime punishable by lifelong imprisonment or death to be hateful of someone?
And if you and your entire people were held in an open air prison for as long as you could think back, would you not grow hateful of your jailers?
Last but not least: The logic that “there are no innocents [on the other side of the fence]” applied by Hamas towards the Israelis led to October 7th. If it was flawed then, how is it not flawed now?
I would argue that any group of non-self-selected humans will have a handful of members who are inherently good or bad, but as a whole they will be no better or worse than any other group raised in similar circumstances and sharing similar experiences. So any blanket condemnation of an entire group is really a condemnation of the circumstances they’ve been subjected to.
It’s an extreme perspective and an oversimplification. So necessarily wrong if you state it this way… Neither do all people in Israel seem to support this, nor is “innocent” any attribute that fits the purpose. Technically like a newborn baby should be pretty much innocent. An adult may not, even if it’s just an act of omission. But that’s not really a philosophical question in this case, is it?
Those who say there are innocent seem to lack empathy.
What is a child guilty of in the conflict? There are always non combatants who are stuck in this wanting no part on either side.
According to sarah silverman theyll grow up to hate israel so they gotta go (I dont like how she kinda got away from being cancelled because she was already irrelevent and shut off her comments for a year to avoid backlash) Midly salty I was her fan and thought she was a woke comedian because she told mfs to vote once.
You missed a word in there.
I don’t think it’s lack of empaty, or rather, it’s not just lack of empaty, I think it’s more an active lumping together of people and ancestry.
So much so Zionist, and Nazi, are into their own a-priori “positive” quality, coherently, absurdly so, Palestinian children have a-priori negative qualities.
I feel sick just typing this because I would think this is very very very clearly idiotic. But it seems to take hold of plenty of people’s worldview.
They lack empathy for the out group.
And often folks like that don’t really have much empathy for the in group once the masks come off.
Hard no.
The idea that your can judge an entire group of people to be innocent or not is heavily flawed. Even if any groups cultural influence was hypothetically incredibly evil, do people deserve death for being influenced by their surroundings? How do we gauge who has true evil in their heart, and who was harbouring doubts but couldn’t say anything? We literally can’t, and that kind of thinking shouldn’t be used to decide judgement of a person, let alone who lives and who dies. In practical terms things get muddier sure, but we’re way past that point.
At this point I feel like the conclusion of violence is made first, then the justification coming afterwards.
How about there are no innocent billionaires?
nobody thinks a whole group of civilians deserve to be killed off that isn’t a complete dumbass
You know that a disturbing amount of people actually do right?
everyone is listening to their own narrative. my israeli friends honestly think that muslims are trying to kill them, because some king in the old testament disobeyed god
It is most definitely used the other way around.
Personally I disagree with it. Hamas, however needs to be held accountable to October 7th.
And the IDF needs to be held accountable for their war crimes. Thing is, they’re not targeting Hamas, they’re targeting innocent bystanders.
And Hamas admit using Gaza’s civilians as human shields and have done going back around 20 years.
Admit what? Let’s hear it; where do they admit it?
“decided to turn that which is most dear to us — the bodies of our women and children — into a dam blocking the collapse in Arab reality.” Yahya Sinwa, 2016
He very obviously doesn’t mean taking them as human shields (which, by the way, Israel has never been able to provide evidence for).
Other than the networks of terror tunnels under schools, hospitals, and kids bedrooms?
You choose to ignore or dismiss the wide and systemic evidence. That doesn’t mean that there is no evidence.
Even Al Jazeera admits that there were terror tunnels inside residential buildings.
The kids bedroom one looks legit, and if so is really fucked up, fair enough. However, Al-Shifa hospital is and has always been bogus. This is where they found a “Hamas guard shift” that turned out to be calendar, if you remember that. More generally,
Even Al Jazeera admits that there were terror tunnels inside residential buildings.
That’s fair. However, if that’s your definition of human shields then… Okay? I’m not sure where else you expect them to put tunnel entrances. It remains a fact that claims by Israel of Hamas using civilian infrastructure for military uses (putting a door somewhere isn’t a military use) in a way that makes them valid military targets are almost all (not all, as the kids bedroom example shows) false.
In November 2024 the UN reported that in most instances Israel does not provide substantial evidence for its human shields allegations in Gaza nor could they independently verify these allegations.
-Wikipedia.
If anything, he very obviously does mean that
It’s probably true for some definition of innocent except for small children and babies. The problem is that people making this argument don’t do so honestly otherwise they’d have to apply it to themselves and their own group as well. If nobody is innocent, it doesn’t make sense to use it as a discriminator.
Exactly this. And all or nothing thinking like nobody is innocent. It’s like CBT 101 of stuff to let go of.
They are brainwashed supporters of genocide. I read about a guy who left to get his 2 newborn twins registered at the hospital and they got killed along with his wife while he was away.
“No innocents.”? Fuck you. I wouldn’t wish this misery on my absolute most hated enemy.
Wish I could find the quote from whatever Israeli minister about “hamas babies.”
And if you don’t, how would you refute it? There is no data that shows that there isn’t a significant majority that’s hateful towards the Israelis.
First, you can’t just say “there is no data that shows that there isn’t X”; you need data that shows X. However, you’ll probably find that data fairly easily, because Palestinians hate Israelis’ guts. That gets us to the real problem with this argument: Having an opinion doesn’t make one guilty of anything. Only acts can make one guilty, acts like—for example—voting for Likud and other Israeli pro-war parties knowing they’re running on a campaign of Palestinian extermination. It’s just more projection from fascists (and make no mistake Zionism is a fascist ideology. For reference see: https://zionism.wtf/.)
It can be valid, it surely doesn’t apply to Gaza.
We are “all” guilty because we knowingly pollute, for example, and that kills people. And we buy products and that finance Israel bombs. And we fight for survival and strangle our jailer that just landed that job to feed his family and never got quality education to choose a different career.
I am more of the idea that there are no truly guilty in a strict sense. We as a society share the responsibility to handle the now extended knowledge we have and we are basically not even trying.
There’s plenty of examples of people of both nationalities living, working, cooperating, or interacting together.
“They’re all guilty” is bullshit.
It’s pretty easy to be blinded by hatred and anger and wanting to excuse your own actions. I think we’ve all been there in life. Whoever is saying “there are no innocents” in Palestine is clearly at that stage.
Palestinians have every right and plenty of reasons to hate Israelis as far as I am concerned
Its like with Nazi germany. Sure not literall ALL germans supported hitler but they also just didnt do enough to stop him. When your children are killed by people with israeli flags, its hard not to hate the whole country.
That doesnt make them guilty of anything other than hatred however. The amount of people in gaza actively involved in killing israeli civilians is close to zero. Killing soldiers occupying your land is not great but arguably not morally bad.
There were literally thousands of Hamas fighters who entered Israel by land, sea, and air on Oct 7, 2023. They captured and held territory, killed 1200 people, kidnapped hundreds more, and committed war crimes. Hamas claims that they have/had 10s of thousands more fighters. The scale of these numbers is undisputed.
How is that “close to zero?”
Thousands compared to a population of over a million is very negligible. Even if every single one of them actively targeted civilians. ‘A negligibly small percentage’ is sometimes colloquially referred to as ‘practically zero’.
It’s about 1.4%
Israel lists about 160000 active duty IDF. That’s about 1.6% - practically zero according to you?
USA active duty is about 0.6%
It’s not like they came out of nowhere. If they were framed as the Rebellion in a dystopian movie, everybody would be cheering for them. Probably asking why the other 98.6% of the population aren’t participating.
They killed ~800 civilians according to Israel, but Israel has refused any independent investigation into these numbers and their causes of death. Likely the number was much lower and a lot were killed by Israel fire in the confusion or under hannibal directive.
The number of Hamas fighters that actually had civilian blood on their hands was at the time of the attack surely not in the thousands, because how can multiple people kill a single person.
After 16 months of bombing, arrests and starvation the number of hamas fighters alive that have actually killed any Israeli civilians is bound to have dwindled to a fraction of the initial number. All that is left are military forces engaged in war with other military forces.
All the while tens of thousands probably more than 100k univolved gazans have been killed by bombing, gunfire or starvation.
In terms of hatred im sure most gazans would be happy if Israel crumbled, but people are to be judged for actions not thoughts.
A whole different topic of discussion is whether settlers occupying and partying on internationally disputed territory should be considered civilians.
A whole different topic of discussion is whether settlers occupying and partying on internationally disputed territory should be considered civilians.
That answers your opinion the “no innocent Israelis” question.
