It seems that there are a lot of Israelis that believe that there are no innocents in Gaza. And one could argue that it’s possible that a significant majority of the population is hateful towards Israelis, considering the history.
If you agree with this argument, can you please explain why and elaborate? And if you don’t, how would you refute it? There is no data that shows that there isn’t a significant majority that’s hateful towards the Israelis.
DISCLAIMER: I’m not stating my opinion as I want to hear an unbiased opinion from you.
The idea of free will is unfalsifiable. So far, there is no evidence that there is anything causing conscious beyond, physical, chemical interactions. This means, that most likely, humans do not have free will. Every action, every thought, is caused by some chemical, or physical thing, and is ultimately predetermined.
The idea of “guilt” is born out of the idea that humans have free will, and are therefore culpable for “bad” or “immoral” actions. But humans do not have free will. Punishing a “guilty” person, is actually just inflicting suffering on the qualia, or the conscious experience of someone, for circumstances completely out of anyone’s control, including themselves.
I believe that all people are innocent. Every act of violence should be evaluated as if it was being done against an innocent person. The only difference between a killer and a saint is that of brain chemistry.
As for Israel specifically, since that is a different question than the nature of innocent, here is my reply:
- Israel funded and supported Hamas to undermine Palestinian authority
- Israel had extensive knowledge on Hamas’ capabilities beforehand, but “accidentally” ignored warning signs
I see a few people blaming Hamas for Oct 7th. I disagree. When a dog bites someone, do you blame the dog or the owner?
This robs Hamas of their heroism. The flood wasn’t just animals escaping their cage, it was a strategic defeat of the most advanced border wall in the world. They overcame incredible odds to break through it into the land that was stolen from them.
And Hamas didn’t break in to randomly kill people. They wanted hostages to exchange for the hostages Israel had. With that in mind, most of the deaths might very well have been inflicted by the IDF under the Hannibal directive to deprive Hamas of hostages.
The flood wasn’t just animals escaping their cage, it was a strategic defeat of the most advanced border wall in the world. They overcame incredible odds to break through it into the land that was stolen from them.
Sure. This claim might even be true. And you’re right, it’s not fair to compare real people, fighting for their lives, to “dogs”.
But it doesn’t undo what Hamas did to innocent* people, nor does it undo the fact that the Israeli government funded, supported, and propped up Hamas while suppressing the actual Palestinian parties.
*lmao I just said I didn’t believe in innocence.
Hamas is an actual Palestinian Party. The people in Gaza support them, regardless of the fact that Israel cynically empowered them to divide Gaza from the West Bank. A guerilla force can not survive without mass support.
I don’t think this is a properly formed question because there’s a difference between “not hateful” and “innocent”. “Innocent” also needs further qualification - innocent of what?
Also, there are no “unbiased opinion” on anything, that’s just not possible.
Also, there are no “unbiased opinion” on anything, that’s just not possible.
It is possible to get someone’s opinion without accidentally influencing them, which is what they’re referring to.
Yeah, that seems to make sense I suppose. Although that makes me wonder if OP thinks they have enough impact to meaningfully influence opinions…
Subtle influences on the way people think or talk about their thoughts are so common I’m surprised we even have to talk about the phenomenon.
I’m not going to fundamentally change my opinion just because of what some rando on the interwebz says to get a discussion going.
I would argue that any group of non-self-selected humans will have a handful of members who are inherently good or bad, but as a whole they will be no better or worse than any other group raised in similar circumstances and sharing similar experiences. So any blanket condemnation of an entire group is really a condemnation of the circumstances they’ve been subjected to.
It’s an extreme perspective and an oversimplification. So necessarily wrong if you state it this way… Neither do all people in Israel seem to support this, nor is “innocent” any attribute that fits the purpose. Technically like a newborn baby should be pretty much innocent. An adult may not, even if it’s just an act of omission. But that’s not really a philosophical question in this case, is it?
Those who say there are innocent seem to lack empathy.
What is a child guilty of in the conflict? There are always non combatants who are stuck in this wanting no part on either side.
According to sarah silverman theyll grow up to hate israel so they gotta go (I dont like how she kinda got away from being cancelled because she was already irrelevent and shut off her comments for a year to avoid backlash) Midly salty I was her fan and thought she was a woke comedian because she told mfs to vote once.
You missed a word in there.
I don’t think it’s lack of empaty, or rather, it’s not just lack of empaty, I think it’s more an active lumping together of people and ancestry.
So much so Zionist, and Nazi, are into their own a-priori “positive” quality, coherently, absurdly so, Palestinian children have a-priori negative qualities.
I feel sick just typing this because I would think this is very very very clearly idiotic. But it seems to take hold of plenty of people’s worldview.
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That’s what you say to justify genocide. There are children there.
It is most definitely used the other way around.
Personally I disagree with it. Hamas, however needs to be held accountable to October 7th.
And the IDF needs to be held accountable for their war crimes. Thing is, they’re not targeting Hamas, they’re targeting innocent bystanders.
And Hamas admit using Gaza’s civilians as human shields and have done going back around 20 years.
Admit what? Let’s hear it; where do they admit it?
“decided to turn that which is most dear to us — the bodies of our women and children — into a dam blocking the collapse in Arab reality.” Yahya Sinwa, 2016
He very obviously doesn’t mean taking them as human shields (which, by the way, Israel has never been able to provide evidence for).
If anything, he very obviously does mean that
Other than the networks of terror tunnels under schools, hospitals, and kids bedrooms?
You choose to ignore or dismiss the wide and systemic evidence. That doesn’t mean that there is no evidence.
Even Al Jazeera admits that there were terror tunnels inside residential buildings.
The kids bedroom one looks legit, and if so is really fucked up, fair enough. However, Al-Shifa hospital is and has always been bogus. This is where they found a “Hamas guard shift” that turned out to be calendar, if you remember that. More generally,
Even Al Jazeera admits that there were terror tunnels inside residential buildings.
That’s fair. However, if that’s your definition of human shields then… Okay? I’m not sure where else you expect them to put tunnel entrances. It remains a fact that claims by Israel of Hamas using civilian infrastructure for military uses (putting a door somewhere isn’t a military use) in a way that makes them valid military targets are almost all (not all, as the kids bedroom example shows) false.
In November 2024 the UN reported that in most instances Israel does not provide substantial evidence for its human shields allegations in Gaza nor could they independently verify these allegations.
-Wikipedia.
It’s probably true for some definition of innocent except for small children and babies. The problem is that people making this argument don’t do so honestly otherwise they’d have to apply it to themselves and their own group as well. If nobody is innocent, it doesn’t make sense to use it as a discriminator.
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nobody thinks a whole group of civilians deserve to be killed off that isn’t a complete dumbass
You know that a disturbing amount of people actually do right?
everyone is listening to their own narrative. my israeli friends honestly think that muslims are trying to kill them, because some king in the old testament disobeyed god
And if you don’t, how would you refute it? There is no data that shows that there isn’t a significant majority that’s hateful towards the Israelis.
First, you can’t just say “there is no data that shows that there isn’t X”; you need data that shows X. However, you’ll probably find that data fairly easily, because Palestinians hate Israelis’ guts. That gets us to the real problem with this argument: Having an opinion doesn’t make one guilty of anything. Only acts can make one guilty, acts like—for example—voting for Likud and other Israeli pro-war parties knowing they’re running on a campaign of Palestinian extermination. It’s just more projection from fascists (and make no mistake Zionism is a fascist ideology. For reference see: https://zionism.wtf/.)
There’s plenty of examples of people of both nationalities living, working, cooperating, or interacting together.
“They’re all guilty” is bullshit.
That is usually how a genocide is justified to the public. Every member of the ‘undesireabe’ group is guilty of being an undesirable, and can thus be justifyably murdered.
Examples:
All Jewish people are guilty of some conspiracy and/or killing Jesus
All Muslim people are guilty of replacing white christians and/or terrorism
All LGBTQ people are guilty of grooming kids
All Palestinians are guilty of ‘occupying’ Israeli land.
etc.
Every example of this is a tool of propaganda to get the public to go along with unfair treatment up to and including genocide. The fact that they’re all easily refuted doesn’t matter. It goes hand in hand with the view that the group aren’t fully people.
This reasoning is never ok, no matter what group of people it’s used against this time. When you recognize it, call it out for the sham it is.
Those people who say that are just trying to justify their own hatred/bigotry/war crimes.
They are brainwashed supporters of genocide. I read about a guy who left to get his 2 newborn twins registered at the hospital and they got killed along with his wife while he was away.
“No innocents.”? Fuck you. I wouldn’t wish this misery on my absolute most hated enemy.
Wish I could find the quote from whatever Israeli minister about “hamas babies.”
it is a valid view.
but i do not support it.
imo, anything that uses absolutes tends to get out of reasonable bounds.
no innocentsin Gaza is really hard to prove.
