And what language and region is it?
I’ve noticed my language teacher uses the informal you in one language and the formal one in the other.
Technically English has this too but it’s not used outside of extremely formal situations. You = formal, Thou = informal.
I’m certain there is no situation like that. It’s just a dead part of the language. Most native speakers don’t even know how to use it properly when imitating old-timey speech.
Quakers use “thee/thou” sometimes, but only because the movement has been around since just before the end of the shift to “you” for everything, and it’s fossilised in as a result. There’s a few weird British Isles dialects that preserve it too, but they’re not widespread.
It’s archaic. I can’t really imagine a situation in which we’d use “thou” today for formality reasons. If you say “thou” , you’re pretending to be someone from hundreds of years ago or you’re quoting the King James Bible or something that is hundreds of years old.
I think a more-reasonable division between formality and informality would be whether or not one uses a title like “sir” today.
Sir is not a grammatical person. You/Thou are, however. That’s the difference.
Tagalog. I lived with my ex-wife and her family for years. The more people in the house, the happier Mom was. They all spoke Tagalog. One day I heard my brother-in-law speaking to someone on the phone and it sounded much different. I asked him why and the call and he said he was speaking formally.
Hopefully someone can explain better.
Listening to my wife speak Tagalog to family and friends gets me. Spanish! Out of nowhere!
In Filipino/Tagalog, you = “ikaw” (or “ka”, depending on the way the sentence is structured) which is okay to use for peers or younger people. For older people or people of higher positions, we address them with the “plural you” = “kayo”. We also add “po” when speaking politely/respectfully.
For example:
“Nasaan ka?” = “Where are you?”
“Nasaan po kayo?” = “Where are you?” (respectfully)
Any adults I don’t know, older adults in my family including my friends’ parents (many don’t, I’m just a bit old fashioned, lol) and employees at work? Goes for both French and Spanish. 👍
Dutch is now my main language. I rarely, almost never, use the formal “U” or “Uw”. It’s an archaic thing.
It’s notice it’s still in use in government communication. I also notice it in (older) literature.
In my experience many small businesses use it in written communication. Even if you just had an informal phone conversation with them, they will follow up with a formal email. GPs do it too in online written consults. I find it slightly annoying, because it forces me to consider doing the same, which I rarely do otherwise.
Sometimes younger people (strangers) address me in the formal form, even though I’m in my 30s.
Big companies usually use the informal form in their communication.
Big companies using the informal you in formal communication can be seen as a way to try to make themselves feel smaller, more approachable, more person-like than they actually are.
I’m not saying that is necessarily the reason behind it, but formal or informal you do invoke different feelings and associations when they are used.
I definitely agree about the big companies. They have style guides for this and it’s definitely about perception. However, the formal you sounds very stiff and official to me coming from people who are very friendly and informal on the phone and who are in many cases older than me. At the same time I realize that some of their clients might appreciate the formal form and they’re just using it by default instead of overthinking it.
I’m also Dutch and I still occasionally use it when I want to be polite to an older person I do not know very well, or to someone who is in a position where I want to show a certain form of “respect” (higher social standing?)
That is probably also why the government uses U in its communication. It is proper to be seen as being respectful to your citizens. And saying “jij” after “u” is less likely to offend anyone than saying “u” after “jij”
The rules are a bit vague when you are supposed to use it l, and most people will go “zeg maar jij hoor” (you can say [informal] you) after you start with “u” (formal you)
I choose to believe UwU is extra formal
Traditional spanish has a formal you (usted/ustedes), however Argentinian Spanish, which is the version that I’m most familiar with mostly uses vos instead of usted and tu, and doesn’t typically differentiate between formal and informal
Also in traditional Spanish, the formal you (usted/ustedes) goes with the verb in the third person conjugation. I mention it because pronouns are often skipped.
I don’t think I’ve ever seen a comprehensive explanation when to use “Sie” over “du” in German. Very, VERY basically it’s this: if you’re close to the other person, it’s “du”, otherwise “Sie”. And then there’s a gazillion constellations where it’s not that easy and it seems learners keep finding more cases where what they learnt isn’t applicable. Most of these are intuitive to native German speakers, some are difficult to decide even for us.
Not that I think German is special in this. The correct way to address someone is less about language rules that you can memorise, more something you learn to intuit by getting to know the intricacies of the culture and its social mores.
Regarding your language teacher: what are those two languages? They may have different rules on how a teacher/student relationship works.
I’m in Austria speaking German and I’m learning French. Our rules for ‘du’ are very different from the ones in Germany though, and vary wildly regionally- from using ‘Sie’ for your drinking buddies to using ‘du’ for authority figures. From what I gather in this thread, the rules in Germany and France are similar?
if you’re close to the other person, it’s “du”, otherwise “Sie”.
Just sounds like a source of anxiety. If you meet someone for the first time and use the formal, at some point as you get to know them and become close you have to start using the informal? Does that get awkward sometimes if someone uses the wrong one, or uses it too early in a relationship or something? Is it a big deal to start using the informal? Goes for all languages. I’ve thought about that with Japanese too where it really is a big deal
General rule of thumb that aligns well with what you do in English: “Sie” goes with last names, “du” goes with first names.
There are very rare exceptions, for example sports reporters tend to address some athletes with “Sie” and first name for reasons that nobody can explain. Those are not very relevant in everyday conversation, especially not if German is not your first language.
Is it a big deal to start using the informal?
It used to be a cliché that you would call coworkers by their last name and “Sie” until that one fateful office Christmas party where your boss gets drunk and asks you to call him Fritz and “du”.
These days, things are a lot more relaxed. Many companies are adopting a rule that all employees should address each other as “du”, including upper management.
Funny thing is, in Dutch, I feel it is way more common that people correct you for using a formal form than the other way around.
In like a “oh please, sir was my father, call me Dave” kind of way? Or a “hey man this really isn’t appropriate in this situation” kind of way?
Yeah no, more like the former.
In Spain it is normally used with elderly people (less and less, people get offended and think that “you call them old” or something like that when you use it) and in very formal situations, especially at work.
I live in Japan, and of course there are formal ways to say everything, but in formal and polite situations, people actually try to avoid saying ‘you’ (anata, 貴方) as much as possible. Because even that can feel too personal. I only see it in writing that addresses the reader indirectly, like in surveys.
If you do address or refer to them, you typically use their title/position (e.g., ‘sensei’ for doctors and teachers, ‘Mr. President’), or name and appropriate honorific (i.e. Tanaka-san).
P.S., a lot of what might’ve been archaically formal and polite ways to say ‘you’ have become ironically rude and/or condescending. Like, ‘KISAMA!’ (貴様), kimi (君) (sovereign/lord), onushi (お主) (lord).
Yes this! With my family and friends I don’t think I’ve ever used anata. It feels almost as confrontational to me as the actual formal ways
Das geht Sie gar nichts an!
In Finnish, we have a formal ‘you’, but it’s kind of archaic and I there aren’t really any situations where it should be used. In general, you should avoid formal speech. It’s rarely used and sticks out, so instead of being polite it might even make you sound sarcastic.
Coming from that culture, German ‘sie’ felt awkward at first. It feels pointless, but at the same time quirks like this also make cultures more interesting. I remember this meme video where a guy insults a cop while addressing him with ‘du’, but as the cop turns towards him, he quickly corrects it with ‘sie’, making the insult 100 times better. That just wouldn’t work here.
In English, I use it all the time because ‘thou’ has been dropped.
I remember this meme video where a guy insults a cop while addressing him with ‘du’, but as the cop turns towards him, he quickly corrects it with ‘sie’, making the insult 100 times better.
I think they’re asking, not just turning around.
- “Du Schwein”
- Officer: “was haben sie gesagt?” Or a short form like “bitte?”
- " Sie Schwein"
The joke being that they’re asking politeness form while retaining the insult. IMO the asking adds impact over just turning around, because the officer is offering a chance to pull back.
Still can’t find the video. They did say something along those lines, but “Sie Schwein” wasn’t the kind of politeness they asked for. I remember they were about to leave, but then stormed the guy.
Here it is :D https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzlGdV5RTYY
- “Raus Alter, mach raus, du Wichser.”
- Police officer turns around; “Wie bitte?”
- “Tschuldigung.” (Brief pause.) “Sie Wichser.”
- A bunch of police officers storm back into the apartment.
Translating/paragphrasing:
- Get out, man. Wanker.
- Excuse me? / What did you say?
- Sorry. Wanker, respectfully.
Ah, thanks. I too remembered it as Schwein and not Wichser.
In Finnish, “sinä” is singular “you” and “te” is plural “you”. (sinä also has tons of variations in spoken language, including but not limited to: sä, sää, sie) Te is traditionally used as formal address both for authority and peers, but pretty rare nowadays. Nobody really uses it or any other formal address terms anymore, outside of certain very formal contexts, except reporters in interviews for some reason.
I speak Spanish, and use the formal pronoun when in any formal situation, eg. addressing a stranger.
In Turkish we have plural version of you called Siz which can be used both adressing multiple people and as formal you. There are no pronunciation differences so it depends on the context. (e.g. Sizin sınıfınız iyi. uses it as plural, Sizi bir yerden gözüm ısırıyor. uses is as formal you)
Spanish has a plural formal form as well, but it’s only used as such in Spain. “Ustedes” (the informal one is “vosotros”.)
In the rest of the Spanish speaking world, that formal form is used in both formal and informal contexts. So non-Spaniards have that one fact with common with Turkish people. Neat!
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