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Not Assembly, but HROT was written in Pascal by one person and runs buttery smooth.
Oooh! Know what I’m playing this weeeknd! Thanks!
- Programming was never meant to be abstract so far from the hardware.
- 640k is enough ram for everybody.
- The come with names like rust, typescript, go, and python. Names thought up by imbeciles.
- Dev environments, environmental variables, build and make scripts, and macros, from the minds of the utter deranged.
They have played us for fools
I dabbled with making a fairly complex program for a microcontroller the other day and quickly hit the stack limit for a simple object.
It wasn’t so much that it was a large object, but to provide flexibility I was amazed how fast I filled the memory.
I’ve done heaps with memory managed languages in the past but shit as soon as I had to think about what I was doing under the hood everything got hard af.
So serious question - does anyone have any good resources for a competent programmer, but with no clue whatsoever how to manage memory in a microcontroller space and avoid fragmentation etc?
I got it to work but I’m sure I did shit job and want to be better at it.
The best book I’ve ever bought on programming, and the second best book I bought for a class in uni, was https://dl.acm.org/doi/book/10.5555/1824214 it may be worth checking out on libgen and buy if it suits your needs.
Whenever I do low-level programming on the AVR architecture, I’ll make a memory map. As in I’ll map out where I’ll put what. It may not be suitable for more complex programs, but it does the job for me. And it has enabled teamwork in assembly in the past.
If you want to work in a language that doesn’t offer memory management, but manually mapping memory isn’t feasible either, how about building your own memory management? Or perhaps use an RTOS? I’ve used freeRTOS before on various arm-based micros, and it does take a bit to get started, but after that it’s easy sailing.
Sorry for the following tangent, all semi intelligent content in this comment is found above this line.
BTW I tried CoOS once, I wouldn’t recommend it… OK it was 12 years ago, I can’t remember exactly what was wrong other than the documentation was crap, but I don’t need to remember why to hold a grudge.
I love Roller Coaster Tycoon. It’s absolutely crazy how he managed to write a game in a way many wouldn’t even attempt even in those days, but it’s not just a technical feat, it’s a creative masterpiece that’s still an absolute blast to play.
It still blows my mind how smoothly it gives the illusion of 3D and physics, yet it can run on almost anything.
OpenRCT brings a lot of quality of life and is often the recommended way to play today, but the original RCT will always deserve a spot on any “Best Games of All Time” list.
It was even ported to the original Xbox. I remember the total games file size being incredibly small - compared to most other titles on that system.
To be fair, assembly lines of code are fairly short.
/ducks
Back in the day we wrote everything in asm
Pssh, if you haven’t coded on punch cards, you aren’t a real coder
Writing in ASM is not too bad provided that there’s no operating system getting in the way. If you’re on some old 8-bit microcomputer where you’re free to read directly from the input buffers and write directly to the screen framebuffer, or if you’re doing embedded where it’s all memory-mapped IO anyway, then great. Very easy, makes a lot of sense. For games, that era basically ended with DOS, and VGA-compatible cards that you could just write bits to and have them appear on screen.
Now, you have to display things on the screen by telling the graphics driver to do it, and so a lot of your assembly is just going to be arranging all of your data according to your platform’s C calling convention and then making syscalls, plus other tedious-but-essential requirements like making sure the stack is aligned whenever you make a jump. You might as well write macros to do that since you’ll be doing it a lot, and if you’ve written macros to do it then you might as well be using C instead, since most of C’s keywords and syntax map very closely to the ASM that would be generated by macros.
A shame - you do learn a lot by having to tell the computer exactly what you want it to do - but I couldn’t recommend it for any non-trivial task any more. Maybe a wee bit of assembly here-and-there when you’ve some very specific data alignment or timing-sensitive requirement.
I like ASM because it can be delightfully simple, but it’s just not very productive especially in light of today’s tooling. In practice, I use it only when nothing else will do, such as for operating system task schedulers or hardware control. It’s nice to have the opportunity every once in a while to work on an embedded system with no OS but not something I get the chance to do very often.
On one large ASM project I worked (an RTOS) it’s exactly as you described. You end up developing your own version of everything a C compiler could have done for you for free.
I don’t know exactly how much code reuse Sawyer had going back then, but if you’ve ever played Transport Tycoon (or more likely the open source version around today, OpenTTD) then you know that the interface and graphics are extremely similar. So it’s not like he started from scratch each game with nothing but a hot spinning disc and a magnetized needle.
But yeah, the main reason to put up with all the modern framework bloat is the ever-ephemeral promise of being able to write your thing once and have it ported to run anywhere with minimal to no further effort.
Don’t Want to be that Guy but you can actually use library’s in Assembly and probably want to, as otherwise you have no good way of interacting with the os.
In fact Chris Sawyer did use C for the purposes of linking the OS libraries necessary for windowing, rendering, sound etc.
You can actually pluralize library and probably want to.
petah please what’s this mean
The game Roller Coaster Tycoon was famously hand written in raw CPU instructions (called assembly language). It’s only one step removed from writing literal ones and zeros. Normally computers are programmed using a human-friendly language which is then “compiled” into CPU instructions so that the humans don’t have to deal with the tedium and complication of writing CPU instructions.
To further emphasize this, I had an assembly course in university. During my first lab, the instructor told us to add a comment explaining what every line of assembly code did, because if we didn’t, we would forget what we wrote.
I listened to his advice, but one day I was in a rush, so I didn’t leave comments. I swear, I looked away from the computer for like 2 minutes, looked back, and had no idea what I wrote. I basically had to redo my work.
It is not that much better than reading 1s and 0s. In fact in that course, we spent a lot of time converting 1s and 0s (by hand) to assembly and back. Got pretty good at it, would never even think of writing a game. I would literally rather create my own compiler and programming language than write a game in assembly.
I’m probably completely insane and deranged, but I actually like assembly. With decent reverse engineering software like Ghidra, it’s not terribly difficult to understand the intent and operation of isolated functions.
Mnemonics for the amd64 AVX extensions can go the fuck right off a bridge, though.
VCVTTPS2UQQmight as well be my hands rolling across a keyboard, not a truncated conversation from packed single precision floats into packed unsigned quadword integers.I had a course in uni that taught us assembler on z/os. My advisor told me most students fail the course on the first try because it was so tough and my Prof for that course said if any of us managed to get at least a B in the course, he’d write us a rec letter for graduate school. That course was the most difficult and most fun I’ve ever had. I learned how to properly use registers to store my values for calculations, I learned how to use subroutines. Earned myself that B and went on to take the follow up course which was COBOL. You’re not crazy, I yearn to go back to doing low level programming, I’m mostly doing ruby for my job but I think my heart never left assembler hahaha
Ah yes, there was this guy in our tech school class that used to code golf in assembly. Was a crack in math and analytics too, which might explain it somewhat. Well, everyone is different i guess.
thanks petah
Glory to you… abd your hoooouse!
To send the point home even more, this is how in python you make a line of text display:
print("Hello World")This is the same thing, in assembly (According to a blog I found. I can’t read this. I am not build better.)
org 0x100 ; .com files always start 256 bytes into the segment ; int 21h is going to want... mov dx, msg ; the address of or message in dx mov ah, 9 ; ah=9 - "print string" sub-function int 0x21 ; call dos services mov ah, 0x4c ; "terminate program" sub-function int 0x21 ; call dos services msg db 'Hello, World!', 0x0d, 0x0a, '$' ; $-terminated messageBut python turns that cute little line up top, into that mess at the bottom.
I like python. Python is cute. Anyone can read python.
That assembly is for a DOS application. It would be more verbose for a modern Linux or Win32 application and probably require a linker script.
But python turns that cute little line up top, into that mess at the bottom.
Technically, not quite. Python is interpreted, so it’s more like “call the print function with this string parameter” gets fed into another program, which calls it’s own functions to make it happen.
This is what gcc 13.2.0 makes of it in Linux:
So basically just loading the string and calling ‘printf’ from the libc.
I want to get off Mr. Bones’ Wild Ride
The ride never ends!
I was looking for this comment. Brings back so many good memories of the early internet.
If you’ve written 500k lines of code you were surely pretty confident about your decision.
You sweet summer child…
I’m a developer, I don’t just continue doing things for years if it doesn’t make sense.
(If I’m the one making the decisions)
Like the classic, inherit a broken code base, and not being allowed by the owner to rewrite it from scratch. So you have to spend more time making each part work without the others working. Also before you are finished the customer says they have something else for you to do
That’s when you start introducing modules that have the least impact on the legacy code base. Messaging is a good place to start, but building a new code next to the existing one and slowly refactoring whenever you got time to spare is at least a bearable way to go about it.
Shhhh you just described iterative development. Careful not to be pro agile, or the developers with no social skills will start attacking you for being a scrum master in disguise!
Fuck agile, or scrum, or whatever it is called. I just look at the issues and pick whatever I feel like doing. Kanban for life.
Programmers love to rewrite things, but it’s often not a good idea, let alone good for a business. Old code can be ugly because it is covered with horrible leasons and compromises. A rewrite can be the right thing, but it’s not to be taken lightly. It needs to be budgeted for, signed off on and carefully planned. The old system needs to stable enough to continue until the new system can replace it.
Okay, I’ll tell you, in this situation, the code never really worked outside of the demo stage. It was written in bash+ansibel+terraform+puppet designed to use ssh from a docker container and run stages of the code on different servers. And some of it supposedly worked on his computer, but when it failed to run when he was not clicking the buttons, and I read through each part, I can promise you that it never worked
I didn’t write broken code base because I didn’t like the code, I meant that it didn’t work
The whole point of docker is to solve the “work on my computer” by providing the developer hacked up OS with the app. (Rather than fixing it and dealing dependencies like a grown up)
Bit special for it to still be broken. If it flat out doesn’t work, at all, then it may well be “sunk cost fallacy” to keep working on it. There is no universal answer, but there is a developer tendency to rewrite.
I’ll consede that his point in using docker was to avoid the “it works on my computer” problem. It was literally one of his talking points in his handover meeting. But that is not the problem docker is trying to solve, and not it’s strength.
Docker and similar container software makes many things very convenient, and has uses far outside it’s originally intended usage.
And in this situation, when want stable package versions, and simpler uniform setup. And you don’t have stable package versions because docker doesn’t provide reproducible builds (and he didn’t do the work work srojdn that), and it is not a simpler setup when you want to use the hosts ssh agent with ssh inside docker, which require different steps for different distros, Mac and Idk if windows would have worked? And sharing your ssh agent into the docker image is not stable either even if you set it up, it isn’t sure to work the next reboot. And can be every difficult in some Linux distros due to permissions, etc.
Then I ended up putting it on a vm, that is already used for utilities. If I were to do it today, I would probsbly use nix, to actually run these programs that is very sensitive to program version changes in a stable reproducible environment that can run on any Linux distro, including in docker
But the program had many more issues, like editing yaml files by catting them and piping them into tac and piping into sed and then into tac again… And before you say you could do that just with one sed command, sure, but the sane solution is to use yq. Let’s just say that was the tip of the iceberg
Oh and just have to note, claimed working features, but no way for that code the be executed, and when I actually tried to hook up this code, I can’t believe its ever fully worked.
I have seen Devs do things for many years that make no sense
programmers just not a uniform bunch. not all of them blockchain grifters. fancy that.
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Shifts bit to the left
Um what am I doing
Shifts bit to the right
program crashes
I don’t know if everyone gets the reference: RollerCoaster Tycoon is in fact writing mostly in assembly to use the hardware more efficiently
It also makes it really portable which is a big part of why all the ports to modern systems are so close to the original. Obligatory OpenRCT2 shoutout.
Writing it in assembly would make it pretty much the opposite of portable (not accounting for emulation), since you are directly giving instructions to a specific hardware and OS.
Not necessarily, unless you’re working on something like an OS you’re not usually directly accessing/working on the hardware. As long as you can connect the asm up to your os/driver abstraction layer and the os to hardware apis work the game should be functional. Not to mention RCT targets the x86 assembler architecture which was one of the most popular at the time
That’s no less true than games written in C, or otherwise with few dependencies. Doom is way more portable than RCT precisely because it’s written in C instead of assembly.
you’re not usually directly accessing/working on the hardware
I mean, you are. Sure, there’s a layer of abstraction when doing tasks that require the intervention of the kernel, but you are still dealing with cpu registers and stuff like that. Merely by writing in assembly you are making your software less portable because you are writing for a specific ISA that only a certain family of processors can read, and talking with the kernel through an API or ABI that is specific to the kernel (standards like Posix mitigate the latter part somewhat, but some systems (windows) aren’t Posix compilant).
Started playing openrct2 multiplayer with a friend yesterday. Some of the best fun I’ve had.
My friend and I created MONORAIL LAND
We created the world of monorail 1. Everything exists to bring more people to monorail 1. What is monorail 1? It is a 4 car monorail that takes the shortest possible path back to the start of the station. We have several other attractions at the park such as: The Pit; Memento Mori; Install CSS, but none of them are the main attraction.
Damn this post. This is really going to f up my weekend plans.
OpenRCT2 ditched assembly tho. They wrote it entirely in C++.
Sorry, two separate thoughts. Wasn’t saying open RCT used assembly just wanting to shout out the project.
I mean, I’m pretty sure it would be a good learning experience so I would really not regret it.
I tried decades ago. Grew up learning BASIC and then C, how hard could it be? For a 12 year old with no formal teacher and only books to go off of, it turns out, very. I’ve learned a lot of coding languages on my own since, but I still can’t make heads or tales of assembly.
Try 6502 assembly. https://skilldrick.github.io/easy6502/
My favorite assembly language by far.
this page is great. starting right at “draw some pixels” in such a simple way just instantly makes it feel a bit more approachable!
If you can’t get enough 6502 you can build your own http://wilsonminesco.com/6502primer/
I built a 6502 SBC on a breadboard years ago
Sounds very similar to my own experience though there was a large amount of Pascal in between BASIC and C.
Yeah, I skipped Pascal, but it at least makes sense when you look at it. By the time my family finally jumped over to PC, C was more viable. Then in college, when I finally had to opportunity to formally learn, it was just C++ and HTML… We didn’t even get Java!
I had used like four different flavors of BASIC by the time I got a IBM compatible PC, but I ended up getting on the Borland train and ended up with Turbo Pascal, Turbo C, and Turbo ASM (and Turbo C++ that I totally bounced off of). I was in the first class at my school that learned Java in college. It was the brand new version 1.0.6! It was so rough and new, but honestly I liked it. It’s wildly different now.
Assembly requires a knowledge of the cpu architecture pipeline and memory storage addressing. Those concepts are generally abstracted away in modern languages
You don’t need to know the details of the CPU architecture and pipeline, just the instruction set.
Memory addressing is barely abstracted in C, and indexing in some form of list is common in most programming languages, so I don’t think that’s too hard to learn.
You might need to learn the details of the OS. That would get more complicated.
I said modern programming languages. I do not consider C a modern language. The point still stands about abstraction in modern languages. You don’t need to understand memory allocation to code in modern languages, but the understanding will greatly benefit you.
I still contend that knowledge of the cpu pipeline is important or else your code will wind up with a bunch of code that is constantly resulting in CPU interrupts. I guess you could say you can code in assembly without knowledge of the cpu architecture, but you won’t be making any code that runs better the output code from other languages.
Reminder that ttd was open source even before open ttd :D
I’ve already got a park map.
